Thread: Red flags

Edit:

Since the purpose of my original post was mainly to work out my feelings about the situation with input from others who weren't involved, and that has been accomplished, I'm removing the details, out of fairness to the instructor mentioned (not by name) in the original post.

Thank you to everyone for your very helpful input/advice.

I think you should respond traditionally to this situation, by which I mean "complain about her online without using her name." So there, that's all covered.

You could respond to the email with a request to be removed from her list. I think you can't change her, so mouth shut and mind own business. People will figure out for themselves who she is and whether her teaching has value to them.

Thank you, Dunyah. That's the direction I was leaning. The first thing I did after reading the newsletter was unsubscribe from the mailing list.

I guess I was trying to work out if my reaction was well founded or biased due to my past experience with her. Tiberb, I wasn't simply trying to complain about the situation or I wouldn't have bothered to pose questions in my post.

Interestingly enough, just minutes after I posted I received an email from a troupe mate who had a very similar reaction to mine.

I interpreted the description, per your posting, not as "these are props used in Egyptian choreography, per tradition" but "how to incorporate these props into a traditional Egyptian choreography." Does that make sense? However, without the actual description in front of me, I cannot really comment.

Workshop pricing depends on so many different factors... I don't feel comfortable determining if that is undercutting. It does seem a bit low, but if she isn't paying for studio space, obviously doesn't have to factor in travel/accommodation...

The sweeping generalizations and the unsafe warm up is a concern, though.

My question for you is what do you hope to get out of talking to her or talking to others about her? I personally would mind my own business and quietly direct traffic away from her, e.g. if someone on Bhuz asks for a teacher recommendation in your area, don't recommend her. It doesn't sound like you have much of a relationship with her, so I don't think anything good can come from you doing anything but minding your own business.

I think the best course of action is to walk away and not pay any attention to what she does in the future. Once someone's behavior starts to bother you, it can be very difficult to look away... it's almost like we get addicted to the ever-increasing shock and outrage we feel, and we can't wait to see what the person will do next! That's a very human reaction, but if you can try to rise above it and step away, you'll be happier in the long run.

Unless you are her teacher, good friend, or parent, it's not really up to you to talk to her. What other teachers do, or don't do, is up to them. Especially when it comes to something as ephemeral as dance styles.

The undercutting is serious, and might need to be addressed more directly. If you're friends, you can point out that she's undervaluing herself and possibly even driving students away by charging too little (people don't value your classes if you don't). If you're not friends but competitors, it may be more useful to call a meeting of ALL the instructors in your area to discuss pricing. Not to fix prices (that's illegal) but to discuss what the going rates are.

If you're not a friend or a competitor (you don't teach or offer workshops) then you really need to just walk away and not let what she's doing get to you.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I interpreted the description, per your posting, not as "these are props used in Egyptian choreography, per tradition" but "how to incorporate these props into a traditional Egyptian choreography." Does that make sense?

Yes it does; you have a good point. Thank you!

Originally Posted by indigostars

The sweeping generalizations and the unsafe warm up is a concern, though.

Yes, this worried me too, when I experienced it at her workshop, especially it was a mixed-level workshop and there were baby dancers there who took everything she said as THE TRUTH. Thankfully their regular instructor pointed them back in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The undercutting is serious, and might need to be addressed more directly. .... If you're not friends but competitors, it may be more useful to call a meeting of ALL the instructors in your area to discuss pricing. Not to fix prices (that's illegal) but to discuss what the going rates are.

I am an instructor. I'm not sure I consider K competition since I don't currently offer workshops and her classes are in the next town over, but I am friends with others in the area who are direct competitors with her. For the most part, we are all friendly and do our best to work together, even scheduling our classes so that two of us don't have class on the same night.

Originally Posted by bellyincognito

I guess I was trying to work out if my reaction was well founded or biased due to my past experience with her.

Probably a bit of both. You might not mind being on a mailing list if it were a dancer you liked and learned about a workshop or show you might not have otherwise. If it were a dancer you liked you might have given the benefit of the doubt about the WS topic...maybe she's showing tasteful ways to integrate modern popular props into a full "Egytptian" routine. And so on... and if you liked her this wouldn't be your second original thread about her that goes into details without naming names.

Originally Posted by bellyincognito

First off, I did not sign up for this email newsletter, and I'm one of those folks that would prefer not to receive anything of that sort without personally subscribing to it. She only had my email from a contact list for a hafla that took place ages ago.

If she lifted the list from someone else's hafla-contact list, you might be wise to remind the next local dancer who LISTS all recipients of emails (instead of putting the list in BCC) to please keep the mailing lists private by using BCC or other methods.

If it was a hafla she organized...quietly remove yourself but I think mailing people she's helped aranged a halfa for in the past is fairgame.

Just a quick note about the price of the workshop: Is the $25 for paying in advance, with a higher price at the door? For example, there is a workshop being held in our area by Rhea of Athens. The workshop is three hours, and the "at the door" price is $45, which is pretty standard pricing. However, if you paid for it back in June before the deadline, it was only $25. Big difference. Sometimes it's worth taking the drop for the sponsor to offer this advance pricing in order to ensure the costs of bringing the workshop instructor are covered. I would not consider that undercutting, but insurance. (There are enough people who pay the higher price at the door--I can never commit that far in advance, for example--to average out the cost per person.)

I'm in the "ignore it" camp. There will always be things in your immediate dance community and the community at large that just piss you off. Put your energy and attention into your own work. Do it right and let the others decide for themselves - things usually work themselves out. You'll also be less frustrated ;-)

I've seen workshops at all prices. Perhaps she has priced it low because she is not a famous or out-of-town name? Perhaps she thinks it's a fair price for the content she plans to deliver? If you think of it as a two-hour, one-night class rather than a "workshop", does $25 seem more reasonable to you?

Clearly the woman annoys you on some personal level, but that doesn't mean she's being unethical.

Originally Posted by bellyincognito

Secondly, the newsletter advertises a Veil and Fan Veil workshop and is described roughly as "how to use Veil and Fan Veil in a traditional Egyptian choreography."

Veils have been used for entrances long enough that I'm willing to indulge calling them a "tradition." I wouldn't find it incongruous if she's teaching "prance in, swish it around a little, and then ditch it." The fan veils are more problematic, but I can't prove there isn't someone in Egypt right now doing "traditional Egyptian-style dance" and using fan veils, too. Didn't someone do a tableau piece with a mop at one point? It's not a one-way street, and Egyptian teachers will follow the Western trends if they feel it benefits them. I'm not sure how fan veils are different from Isis wings. Wings are basically an invention of our own pharaonic fantasies, but some native Egyptian dancers have adopted them as regular props.

Lastly, this two hour workshop is being priced at only $25. When I saw the price, I thought perhaps it was a typo. Isn't that a bit low? Most workshops I've attended in this area are priced higher than that.

I've seen four-hour workshops for $30-50 in my area, so $25 doesn't seem too bad for two hours. It's basically a double-length class from someone who's a local teacher.

I am concerned that this instructor is not only undercutting other area teachers, but also presenting information to students that is incorrect.

If we have to round up and quarantine everybody who ever taught anything wrong, there won't be many teachers left. Very few teachers are unimpeachable sources of information. Then again, there's "wrong" and there's "dangerous."

I've already witnessed her teach one workshop where she insisted that the best way to warm up was 5 minutes of straddle squats and that ALL Egyptian dancers perform hip drops in a leaned back position.

Unsafe technique transcends authority on style, and any teacher who proclaims "ALL [anybody] does [anything]..." should automatically be taken with a grain of salt.

Should I say something to her? Bring it up with other area instructors? Keep my mouth shut and mind my own business?

If you think you have valid criticisms and she'd be responsive to them, you could contact her privately, but if you're speculating on what she might do based on something she did a long time ago, or if you know she doesn't "personally care for" you and would ignore whatever you said, no matter how valid it was, I wouldn't bother. If you want to discourage your own students from attending her events, make it clear to them that you're doing so for legitimate, academic reasons, not any dislike of her you harbor--and be prepared that students may want to form their own opinions anyway.

Thank you everyone for your valid input!

Like I said before, I'm going to leave this one be for now and see how it pans out without me getting involved.

I really try to be fair when I form impressions of situations, but nobody's perfect and we're all human. Sometimes, as in this case, it helps to have input from people outside of the situation to clear things up in my head.

Thanks again!