Thread: Undercutting redux

Nissa, please keep us posted on the latest dramatic developments. Good luck!

I actually just raised rates for private work. Since I am overweight, I haven't done a lot of this work. I would get an occasional bachelorette party, but nothing like working 3-4 nights/week. When I took over the studio I was given her going rates. I carried on with those, but then I got to thinking about the whole undercutting thing. Many dancers that I give jobs to also work with other troupes or get gigs on their own. I asked them if my quotes were in line with what they usually got. We were about $40 too low!! I took a poll, and they were all willing to potentially give up jobs if it meant that the customer would not meet the asking price. I felt bad, but I was totally ignorant of current rates. I am so glad they had no problem valuing themselves enough to stand up for themselves and not give me grief about it.

Forgot to add: I think some people are just genuinely clueless. I got a call today from someone asking about classes. She has done the Neena/Veena, Rania, and Atea tapes at home but has never had a live class. She has been teaching water aerobics for a while. AFTER telling me she couldn't do some of the things on her videos she asked if it was possible for her to teach for me. !!!

Originally Posted by Andrea2

I actually just raised rates for private work. Since I am overweight, I haven't done a lot of this work. I would get an occasional bachelorette party, but nothing like working 3-4 nights/week. When I took over the studio I was given her going rates. I carried on with those, but then I got to thinking about the whole undercutting thing. Many dancers that I give jobs to also work with other troupes or get gigs on their own. I asked them if my quotes were in line with what they usually got. We were about $40 too low!! I took a poll, and they were all willing to potentially give up jobs if it meant that the customer would not meet the asking price. I felt bad, but I was totally ignorant of current rates. I am so glad they had no problem valuing themselves enough to stand up for themselves and not give me grief about it.

Outstanding. We've set a meeting for Feb 1, everyone let me know if you don't receive some kind of info from me or, more likely, Nandi in your e-mail over the next week or so.

Forgot to add: I think some people are just genuinely clueless. I got a call today from someone asking about classes. She has done the Neena/Veena, Rania, and Atea tapes at home but has never had a live class. She has been teaching water aerobics for a while. AFTER telling me she couldn't do some of the things on her videos she asked if it was possible for her to teach for me. !!!

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!

have you been in touch with my non bhuzzer mirage dancers? If not then keep them in the loop, I have been banished to this tropical island and tend to get out of touch with the stl happenings

Originally Posted by samiramirage

have you been in touch with my non bhuzzer mirage dancers? If not then keep them in the loop, I have been banished to this tropical island and tend to get out of touch with the stl happenings

Oh, the hardship of life on a tropical island! ,r:; Hey, I'm not sure which island they film on, but if you ever see any of the cast members of LOST, please send my undying love to ALL of them (OK, I'm a giant geek).

Back to topic...I know Nandi is going to send something out to her mailing list, so I'm sure the other Mirage ladies will hear about it, but I should see Penny next week, so I will be sure to pass the info along as well.

Nisaa

Lost is filmed at North Shore - it's almost at the literal end of the road. It's a nice drive and the scenery is beautiful (natch).

Nandi sent out the info tonight. I'm certain Mirage is on her list.

As a student who has now been dancing for four years, I've taken part in a couple of shows and now I want more. There's not much going on in my area and I have thought of offering to dance at local old folks homes, charity fetes etc. for free to gain experience. Would this be very wrong of me? I wouldn't want to upset other dancers, but on the other hand how else can you fulful your craving for the limelight if there are no organised opportunities for amateurs to strutt their stuff locally?

Hi Gypsywitch! Congratulations on posting your first bhuz message!

There's an article on my web site that might help with your dilemma. You can find it here Belly Dance Advice, Tips, How-To's and the title is "From Student to... What?"

One thing to consider - old folks' homes often pay for gigs. The pay might be small, maybe $50 or so, depending on the place, but they do pay. So those venues are best left to the pros.

Possible performing opportunities:

* City festivals. These often include community stages.
* Organize your own dance parties. Invite your friends to dance. And have everyone recruit their friends and families to attend.
* Travel to a nearby city to dance in a belly dance hafla or festival
* Local arts initiatives. I've received several invitations for my students to perform at these. They include an arts program at the hospital, a dance prelude to a city-sponsored outdoor showing of a movie, a local dance festival, etc.
* Ask your teacher to help you identify opportunities to perform that are appropriate to your level.

I hope some of these ideas help!

Gypsywitch

Don't sell yourself short. If you're good enough to dance for the general public, then you should be paid professional fees.

Our art form, as you know, has a lot of public relations problems, and there are lots of people (including the staff at nursing homes and people who attend charity events) who may only see belly dancing once in their lives, and they will forever hold that image of 'belly dance.' I think we need to respect the art form -- and those around us who are trying to earn a living at it -- just as we would we were taking an adult class in another art form. One rarely sees adult amateur ballerinas or violiniists in public performance.

If you're interested in performing professionally, talk to your instructor about the path you need to take.

If you're looking for more performance opportunities at the student level, then others around you probably are, too. Perhaps a monthly or quarterly hafla is in order?

Ditto what Shira and Lauren said!

One rarely sees adult amateur ballerinas or violiniists in public performance.

Unless you live in an isolated area where the local economy can’t support a fully professional status for artists (of all kinds). If there are no paid professional dancers in your community, I still feel it is perfectly ok to dance when and where you can...and for how much or how little you are willing to do it for. If however, there are paid professionals in your community, you need to tread very carefully. That can be a real mine field for you - and them.

Right after I first posted on this thread, I noticed I had posted on a "business of belly dance" area of the forum and I had interrupted was apparently a localized conversation. I thought about removing my posts as inappropriate to this forum, and was somewhat embarrassed for butting in...but I left it so that others who may be struggling with the ethics of dancing for free..or tips only, or even at a rate much lower than paid full time professionals in large communities get, could see the views of dancers in a like situation. I feel that respect for the art form is not always displayed by how much people are willing to pay for seeing it. There is not always a one size fits all answer to the question of compensation, but please do the research on your own community before you begin to dance for the public.

Thank you all for your responses. I'm already thinking about trying to get a once-a-month informal dance evening going.

I think the situation might be a bit different in the UK to the States as although minor event organisers over here would also not pay dancers for taking part in carnivals, local festivals etc and would welcome students, teachers would tend to see this as an opportunity to promote their classes and wouldn't want to lose out on these opportunities to an amateur dancer who was there just for the fun of it. My own teacher usually does these types of events with her professional troupe (presumably to make the best impression possible, which is understandable) and only takes extra (class members) along if its a big event and she needs the extra bodies to fill the space.

Shira, I often visit your site and I love it! I've already printed off your advice on several topics and they now form part of my 'Belly Dance Bible'.

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum by the way - I'm going to hide behind my newness as an excuse this time!

This is just an observation, but it seems like everyone is a bellydancer nowadays, so I thought I'd just mention it. I was reading one of my back-issues of Habibi recently, and one of the articles mentioned that some of the "ethnic" dancers in New York City in the 60's were annoyed when other dancers started teaching. Some of them felt that their livelihood would be threatened by these newly-trained dancers produced by belly dance teachers. Isn't it kind of a catch 22? Many dancers teach because they enjoy it, but also because it helps pay the bills, or at least helps support the habit. :) But, each time another person breaks away from a school, and starts their own group and classes, they are just training more and more people to compete for the few jobs that are out there. Aren't dancers sort of creating their own problems in this way?

Which brings up another interesting question: what the heck is causing everyone in the bi-state area to leave their groups, and try to start up their own groups? There must be a huge state of disgruntlement in the St. Louis area. Maybe this is something that could be discussed at the meeting in February. If I were a teacher, I would like to know what it is that has so many dancers dissatisfied, so maybe I could prevent my students from becoming dissatisfied and leaving.

Seriously, when I started out 10 years ago, there were maybe 4 groups in town. The last time I checked, there were some 14 or more groups in town. No wonder the competition is so tough.

Originally Posted by gypsywitch

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum by the way - I'm going to hide behind my newness as an excuse this time!

Don't be silly! ..g.:

I think we all enjoy discussion from everyone, regardless of the stage the posters are at in their dancing, and regardless of their locations. The issues we were discussing relate to the St. Louis area, but I'm sure these same issues are present in many communities.

I like hearing from everyone! ..g.:

Originally Posted by gotraqs

This is just an observation, but it seems like everyone is a bellydancer nowadays, so I thought I'd just mention it. I was reading one of my back-issues of Habibi recently, and one of the articles mentioned that some of the "ethnic" dancers in New York City in the 60's were annoyed when other dancers started teaching. Some of them felt that their livelihood would be threatened by these newly-trained dancers produced by belly dance teachers. Isn't it kind of a catch 22? Many dancers teach because they enjoy it, but also because it helps pay the bills, or at least helps support the habit. :) But, each time another person breaks away from a school, and starts their own group and classes, they are just training more and more people to compete for the few jobs that are out there. Aren't dancers sort of creating their own problems in this way?

From what I understand it used to be more common for a dancer to just perform when she was on the circuit and not start teaching until she had learned all she could from performing professionally and was retiring from performing at public venues.

Originally Posted by gotraqs

Don't be silly! ..g.:

I think we all enjoy discussion from everyone, regardless of the stage the posters are at in their dancing, and regardless of their locations. The issues we were discussing relate to the St. Louis area, but I'm sure these same issues are present in many communities.

I like hearing from everyone! ..g.:

Ditto!

I am resurrecting this thread because I have new information on the issue that sparked the original post.

Tonight my boyfriend and I were dining at a lovely Afghan restaurant here in St. Louis. We're pretty much regulars there. As we walked in the door, we spotted the owner of the shisha bar that I mentioned in my original post (it's right down the street and he's friends with the owner of the Afghan place); he was having dinner with a lady who seemed to be dressed in a cloak. Odd! Well, as we took our table, we noticed a veil, a sword, and a cage (more on this later) near our table. Hmm! Telltale signs of a belly dancer! So, my BF asks our waiter, did you have belly dance tonight? And he said, yes, we have a dancer every Saturday.

Well, this was news to me, as the owner had shown vague interest in having a dancer in the past but was looking for somebody both cheap and cute, and since I am really neither of those things (OK, I'm not homely, but I don't think I'm the Hotty McHotterson type of gal he's looking for), I have been content just to enjoy going there as a customer (because this place has food that I literally DREAM about I crave it so much).

Anyway, naturally, inquiring minds want to figure out who this dancer is. Eventually she came to collect her things. Unsurprisingly, it was the mysterious cloaked woman. I decided to introduce myself to her and to ask who she dances with. Apparently, she used to take classes with a local studio (Desert Moon), performed with them "a couple of times at festivals," and now (and I paraphrase) her primary teacher is YOUTUBE.

I suggested to her that she should be sure not to undersell herself, and that it would be in her best interest to get back into some classes and get connected with the local dance community. She was very upfront about her limited training and her lack of knowledge. She thought dancing would be a good way to make money but didn't feel it was her right to charge much since she is an amateur. I explained to her that if she feels she is too amateur to charge a pro rate, that perhaps she should reconsider whether she should be dancing in pro venues (mentioning that there are a lot of pro dancers in STL). I also explained to her what the going rate is in STL (well, among the ETHICAL dancers in STL), and her face kind of fell, and she admitted she is charging MUCH less than that (though I don't know exactly how much).

TO BE CONTINUED...

I suspect this is the same lady who had offered to dance at the shisha place. Having spoken to her, I can honestly say that I really am not angry with her. I feel she is just very, very ill-informed. I gave her my card and offered as much advice and encouragement as I could. I can only hope she takes it to heart.

STL dancers, if anybody else could do the same...go there on a Saturday night, introduce yourselves to her, and do your own little "intervention"...my hope is that if we show her that we ARE a community and that it is in ALL of our best interests to band together and raise the bar, MAYBE she'll stop the undercutting.

RE: the cage...it contained a snake...the girl danced with a snake, in addition to sword, veil, and god knows what else, in one show. This poor girl is literally busting out every prop known to man. She mentioned to me something about "fire fingers." The waiter (also a relative of the owner...I think his brother), in speaking to us privately, confided that he is afraid she will burn the joint down.

Ah, the joys of dance in my fair city!!!!!!!!

Nisaa