Thread: Undercutting redux

I know, I know, it's the same story OVER and OVER again for all of us, but I have to vent somewhere...

I have been cultivating a relationship with the Arab owner of a local hookah lounge. I don't usually pursue restaurant work these days because the restaurant biz in my community sucks overall (stay tuned), but this venue has some appeal to me because the owner is very nice and so is the place. The owner has been interested in having a dancer, but he has been putting it off until he gets his liquor license (which he just did) and does some remodeling in part of the space.

Now, I just found out from a friend of the owner that some dancer came in and offered to dance there for free. It would be one thing if they came in and offered an insanely low rate...that happens here ALL the time; there are a ton of "blue plate specials" working here in St. Louis. That's bad enough. But FREE? That is beyond ridiculous!

I have a good rapport with this owner, but I hadn't even gotten to the point of talking money with him, so now how in the hell am I EVER supposed to get a booking there, let alone a booking for a fair wage? I could hope that the good will/integrity of the owner will prevail, but I know how Arab guys are, and if he can get a free dancer, he'll take the free dancer, at least until she does something totally asinine.

If this is some student/baby dancer, I will be less angry; I would like to help her to be more informed about ethics, because I myself have made ethical mistakes in the past because of a total lack of knowledge of these things. BUUUUT if this is a local professional (and I have a gut feeling that it is), I am inclined to confront her directly and/or out her to the community.

It's not like I OWN this venue; I knew there would be competition, but I didn't expect to lose this booking to somebody dancing for FREE.

Sigh. I guess this is more of a rant than anything else. But this teaches me a fine lesson. I avoid restaurant work because of this sort of stuff; I should have known that pursuing this would be pointless.

To undercutters lurking out there: just know that you are ruining things for all of us, one community at a time. Way to go. I hope you enjoy your hummus and tips.

Nisaa, basking in the glory of never finding paid work

Are you sure it wasn't them just testing to see if you would lower your prices - some kind of tactic like that? If they really did get the free dancer, are you going to go and see how she dances and point that out to the manager? Would that even help? Sorry, lots of questions here.

Did the owner's friend say that they'd hired her, or just that she offered?

Have you spoken directly with the owner about it? If not, then I would, and if he's leaning towards the freebie, I would speak to him business person to business person.

The problem is, if you're not getting paid to be somewhere, then it's completely up to your own whim as to whether or not you show up. It seems to me like that's a weak peg to hang an attraction on. Say they "hire" the freebie and advertise that they have a belly dancing show Fridays at 8:30 and then the dancer doesn't show up. What are they supposed to tell their customers? What if she's problematic in other ways - what's he going to do? How can you fire someone you're not paying?

Originally Posted by jasani

Are you sure it wasn't them just testing to see if you would lower your prices - some kind of tactic like that? If they really did get the free dancer, are you going to go and see how she dances and point that out to the manager? Would that even help? Sorry, lots of questions here.

No, honestly, we had not even gotten to the point of discussing rates.

Believe me, this sort of situation is typical here. We have several people in our community who offer to dance for free or next to nothing and thus completely lock out any other potential dancers at most venues in the area.

I go there fairly regularly to smoke, so next time I'm there I will feel him out for more info. But I, unlike so many others, will not agree to cut my rates or dance for free.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

No, honestly, we had not even gotten to the point of discussing rates.

Believe me, this sort of situation is typical here. We have several people in our community who offer to dance for free or next to nothing and thus completely lock out any other potential dancers at most venues in the area.

I go there fairly regularly to smoke, so next time I'm there I will feel him out for more info. But I, unlike so many others, will not agree to cut my rates or dance for free.

Nisaa

So they dance EVERYWHERE, for free? And they provide a reliable service to their non-employers? Are they stupid? Do these people have no lives?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Have you spoken directly with the owner about it?

I will...I want to find a diplomatic way to bring it up without sounding like a four year old stamping her foot. But I'm feeling the situation is somewhat futile.

In fact, this feeling of futility is pretty pervasive among even the non-undercutting dancers in my area...I hear a lot of "Well, even if I get a good rate, somebody will undercut me eventually, so why bother trying to raise rates/ set a standard rate/ etc.?" A local dancer wanted to get the dancers in our community together to meet and talk about establishing some standards, and it never got off the ground because of said feelings of futility.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

So they dance EVERYWHERE, for free? And they provide a reliable service to their non-employers? Are they stupid? Do these people have no lives?

The director of the first troupe I was with here, when I had only been dancing for a couple of years and was STOOPID, had us dancing at a local restaurant for dinner and tips. I believe they now get $35 or 40 for two sets. AWESOME! Shades of Jodette, eh? Welcome to STL, cess pool of Midwest belly dance. Sorry, no offense to the really wonderful dancers in my community. But if the professionals can not band together, even for the sake of their own DIGNITY, then I just don't know what can become of a community like this.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I am inclined to confront her directly and/or out her to the community.

Out 'em! I think if someone's going to undercut to that degree in our area, it should be PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE!!!

The same thing happens in Carbondale. Every time there is a business that wants to "hire" belly dancers, untrained persons come out of the woodwork and agree to work for free or practically free.

Recently, a local business that I had "friended" on myspace sent out a bulletin announcing they were looking for high-class acts for an "open mic night". I inquired whether or not this would be paid work, and of course it wasn't (although they had heard of my company and expressed interest in us). Here's the clincher though: they are calling it an open mic night, but they wanted video/audio clips, thus they are essentially *auditioning* acts for their so-called open mic night. Uhhh...excuse me, that's not what "open-mic night" means....

find out who it is and go to her day job and offer to work for free!

no, but seriously this undercutting and dancing for free stuff is out of control.
why don't dancers understand that working for free is not work.
work = paid
professional = paid
if they dance for free, they are just letting the venue use them and get one over on them. its sad that some dancers feel so valueless that they will let a venue take advantage of them like that.

the thing I would suggest is to go in there and offer to perform there for a standard fee. If the owner balks and says "well we already have a dancer here who dances for free", oh that's great however how great is she if she only wants to perform for free. A professional would never offer to dance for free. ect ect. Fight fire w/ fire that's what I say and screw the little wench who wants to perform there for free.

Oh

Even better! Go "Oh that's great! because then you could have two dancers the amateur who gets' the crowd ready whom you already dont have to worry about and me the professional who will make your customers happy and pay for more drinks so they can spend more money in your place."

Make them want to have both of you! :)

It's kind of evil yes, but damn she wants to be a wench then f-her.

Mina

It's kinda evil yes, but damn she wants to be a wench then f her.

Mina

I'm thinking, if I can even get him to the point of negotiating rates at this point (cause why negotiate for what you can get for free), I will state what the going rate is, emphasize that as a pro dancer, this is the rate I charge, and wish him the best of luck with whatever decision he makes. I also will raise Tamrahenna's point regarding the potential flakiness/unreliability of a freebie. Though I'm tempted to toss out a "you get what you pay for...or you get nothing for nothing" kind of comment...

This situation is bringing to mind a thread from several months ago discussing WHY it is that some dancers feel compelled to lower themselves like this. For new, inexperienced dancers, surely it must be the all-consuming desire just to be "out there". But for so-called professionals, I still have a hard time wrapping my head around why they do it.

Sigh...all the fight has gone out of me since my first post. I'm going to keep pursuing this gig; maybe I'm being too quick to dismiss the good sense of the owner. Still, I won't be surprised if Undercutters-R-Us takes this venue, like so many others in my town. It's just sad that this community can not rise above this level of behavior.

Nisaa

Has he seen you perform? Has he seen her perform? There are restaurants here that don't care how bad a girl is - rather I believe they prefer bad ones because they know they don't have to pay much. On the other hand I'm fortunate to also have access to restaurants who understand the business that a good dancer brings in. One has even called a troupe 'owner' and said "Don't ever send her to my restaurant again" because people were walking out! Maybe he might reconsider if he sees her dance/costumes compared to yours? Do you have a vhs or dvd or youtube he can check out after letting the freebie have a go?

i would negotiate..........confidently..........we can't go in thinking, 'why bother cuz someone will undercut or dance for free.........'....or that WILL happen...

excellent points were made, not to mention the ole 'you get what u pay for' argument, benefits of INVESTMENT, professionalism, and the business of charging to meet expenses..........when he realizes you're a business woman, and not a freebie flake, that'll hold some weight.

a local venue here just flexed their cheapo muscle and was on the verge of losing every good dancer they had (they want quality, but unwilling to pay), now they're emailing the dancers freaking out, (if we pay ____, will u stay on?) doubling their crappy rate.......tho not completely competitive yet, it's much closer.....i quit them in the spring because my trying to raise fell on deaf ears...........NOW they're closer to being what they're supposed to........only one problem child venue left in our area........

previous undercutters are now asking the standard rate when they hear what the rest of us that fought are getting paid...........we still have newbies, but we're workin' on them too......it's happening..........just be confident, ask away............

if he takes the freebie, he gets what he 'paid' for when she flakes, and she will............at least you tried....and will succeed next time......just stick together and keep trying

Thanks for fighting the good fight Nissa.

As a fellow St. Louis dancer, I totally support you and any dancers who are willing to stick your neck out for fair wages. I agree that there has been a lot of apathy in our community. I started dancing for pay in 1993 and have seen a lot through the years. I have thought that we need to unite for ages. For those of you who don't know me, I have been one of the St. Louis restaurant work horses for a number of years. I am proud to say that I have never done a free restaurant show, never danced for only tips and have turned down many shows offered because of crappy pay. (There is always the very occasional charity show...these need to be limited too).

I was booked for my first restaurant gig by the director of the dance studio. When I started out, the going rate for a particular restaurant was $10 for a 20 minute set. (In defense of my dance director, she inherited a really bad wage situation from a precedent set years before her.) No free meal, no comp drink. The owner made you sit and wait for hours after the show in case "the greeks showed up". They never did. Even at 18 years old I thought, this is ridiculous. It was a great place to practice and I learned a lot by dancing there BUT most importantly learned that dancers are worth way more than that. The owner even charged us $3 for pita bread. I walked out with 7 dollars.

Out of ignorance, I have made my fair share of mistakes. I bet we all have. If a fellow, more experienced dancer schooled me on the right way to do things I listened and learned. I appreciate directness. We all suffer from the under-cutters in our communities. I know that the rest of the Belly Dance Mirage dancers support my opinions on the issue. Let me/us know what we can do to back you up.

Its like walking around with spinach in your teeth. You think back to all of the people that you talked to since you ate that spanikopita 3 hours ago and none of them told you. I would want to know.

PS check out "Live Nude Girls Unite" it is a documentary about the successful unionization of the exotic dancers in San Francisco. Ok, we aren't strippers and they have it WAY worse than us, but I couldn't help but see some similarities with our situation. Netflix carries it.

Originally Posted by samiramirage

For those of you who don't know me, I have been one of the St. Louis restaurant work horses for a number of years. I am proud to say that I have never done a free restaurant show, never danced for only tips and have turned down many shows offered because of crappy pay.

Samira, I'm so glad you posted something. You and the rest of the Mirage girls are the standard of professional and ethical responsibility in the STL community. I appreciate that in spite of all the crap you have endured over the course of your dance career, you have stuck with your professional standards. Once I "grew up" as a professional here, I realized that you, Penny, Aren and the others were the dancers I should look to as examples of how to successfully and ethically do business as a dancer.

Out of ignorance, I have made my fair share of mistakes. I bet we all have. If a fellow, more experienced dancer schooled me on the right way to do things I listened and learned. I appreciate directness...Its like walking around with spinach in your teeth. You think back to all of the people that you talked to since you ate that spanikopita 3 hours ago and none of them told you. I would want to know.

YES!!!! I made a LOT of ethical blunders during my first few years because I was ignorant and naive. I wish that others had stepped in to tell me what I was doing wrong.

I have found out that the "freebie" I mentioned is a student, though I am still not sure exactly who. This defuses a lot of my anger about the whole thing, because I'm sure she probably doesn't have a clue. This might be an opportunity to educate.

The question that remains, though: Where would a student get the idea that it is acceptable to offer services as a professional dancer at a professional venue for free? Well, when students see professional dancers accepting $20-25 for a restaurant set, or agreeing to dance for tips and dinner, or sending multiple dancers to perform for the same rate as a single dancer, or sending student-level dancers to perform at professional bookings - all problems that are endemic to our community - unfortunately, I feel that those are the examples that they follow. We all know who is doing these things, but it's like the elephant in the room that noone mentions. I think it is imperative for all of us to get together and get these things out in the open. If we were united as a community, it would increase the likelihood that students would get the right message.

PS check out "Live Nude Girls Unite" it is a documentary about the successful unionization of the exotic dancers in San Francisco. Ok, we aren't strippers and they have it WAY worse than us, but I couldn't help but see some similarities with our situation. Netflix carries it

This sounds interesting...thanks for the recommendation!

Nisaa

Hey, Nisaa. I totally agree that the STL restaurant scene sucks. Seems all the venues that want to have dancers already have them. And, many of the restaurants that seem to be obvious choices for dancing are not interested in a regular dance night. I completely agree that some sort of rate standard would be beneficial. Of course, it's difficult to set a standard when there are people sending dancers out to dance for tips alone. I have yet to find any restaurant work since striking out on my own, but I will not accept anything less than $40-50/set plus dinner and drink. That's probably why I haven't had any work in ages! It's a matter of principle, darn it! :) I assume some dancers accept a lower rate because they feel they benefit from the exposure the gig provides, not to mention the business cards they can give out to potential students. I suppose a little of it may stem from a simple desire to be out there dancing, no matter what the cost, and maybe a little bit to do with ego. I got tired of dancing for too little, and once I realized that I was being underpaid in terms of the rates some other local dancers demand (and realized this wasn't going to change), I gave it up. I love, love, love restaurant dancing, but I can't enjoy it as much when I feel resentful about the wages I am earning. The customers apparently think we rake it in. Customers have commented about how much money I must make at restaurant dancing, and I have commented that it is really just more of an expensive hobby. I know for a fact that there are some places in STL where dancers are dancing for free.

By the way, anyone out there in STL with an awesome, decent-paying gig who needs a qualified dancer? I know, probably unlikely, but it never hurts to ask. I'm certainly not having any luck on my own with handing out cards, having a webpage, or any of the other low-cost ways of getting my name out.

P.S. I dropped my card off at this hookah lounge back when it opened, and I remember telling my husband that I didn't see how the owner would be able to afford to hire a dancer, because he seemed to only be offering small treats and hookahs. Now that he has his liquor license, he would, I think be more likely to be able to afford a dancer. When I was there, he said he would like to have a dancer soon, but like I said, that was quite a while back, so there's no telling if that will actually happen or not. Good for you for cultivating a relationship with the owner. I am not so good with that. I don't really go out much in the evenings anymore. I would blame it on my having a kid and husband, but it's more that I am just a "homegirl", as my dad says it! :)

I've had the good fortune to be a neighbor to the St. Louis dance scene rather than a competitor in it, and my studio gets to be Switzerland.

Not sure if that's going to change, as I'll be dancing regularly at Aya Sofia this year, but I don't plan to pursue any other gigs on y'all's 'turf' so hopefully I can stand aside a bit. Aya Sofia is pretty neutral territory still, I think.

Which makes my studio a great place for everyone to meet & talk. Nandi asked if I'd play hostess for some kind of 'gathering' and I would love to, provided no professional St. Louis dancers are excluded from the invitation process.

that working for free is not work.

That is a very good point, and the reason I will speak up here. We dont consider it work. My situation is totally different as I live in a very small town in NM and we have only one place that will even let us dance. It is a small coffee house with about 15 tables and we dance for free. We asked to dance there, as we had no place to perform in public. And that feels a bit like painting only to cover your walls with your own oils. Mind you, there are no ME eateries. Tons of Chinese and Mexican..but that would be too weird! So, I approached the owner and he said yes. I was happy to do it. My troupe was delighted! We have a happy bunch of regulars come see us once a month, they tip us and we apply some of it to upkeep on the studio that the troupe uses for rehearsals and weekly practice, and where I teach classes, and the rest goes to hire experienced teachers for troupe workshops, and to defray costs for students to travel to distant workshops. Other towns are 65 to 80 miles away. So there you have it...I dont feel I am undercutting anyone one because we are it. And I dont feel bad about it. We do charge for birthday parties and the like...we do free charity stuff, Earthday at the zoo, etc. But we dance for free, it's not work and I make no appologies for it.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Not sure if that's going to change, as I'll be dancing regularly at Aya Sofia this year, but I don't plan to pursue any other gigs on y'all's 'turf' so hopefully I can stand aside a bit. Aya Sofia is pretty neutral territory still, I think.

When I talked to the owner at Aya Sofia, she told me to come in some time when there is a dancer, and that she would have the dancer get me up to dance, to show my stuff, I guess. Hopefully you weren't presented with the same proposal. I could have just seen the look on the dancer's face when that went over, like a lead balloon. Needless to say, I didn't take her up on the offer. :) She did seem very nice though.

Ok I may get beat up for saying so but as an owner of my own business..if I was an owner of a restaurant, one of my least concerns would be the rate of pay between dancers. I would hire the professional dancer who promoted my restaurant, brought in regulars, scheduled shows featuring a variety of dancers for a change of face, maybe some student nights, etc. Restaurant owners are not in business to make dancers stars or figure out how much to pay or if someone is undercutting..,their bottom line is their profitability of their business. So naturally, a dancer who did something above and beyond what the other dancers were doing, ie bringing in business, would have the job.

One of my first instructors coordinated student nights once a month at the local Moroccan restaurant. The place was so full you had to make reservations as soon as the show was announced. Family members came to watch the students dance, and some pros from around town. The 'house' dancer who coordinated everything was paid but the other pros danced that night for free, as did the students. Not only did it encourage the students to dance and give them a great place to perform (thus encouraging more dance classes), it was the best night of the month for the restaurant. We'd have two solid hours of dancers.

I don't think the problem of undercutting will go away. There are many dancers who do not understand why it is wrong..along the same lines as why would you pay an apprentice engineer the same as you would pay a more experienced one. This was MY thinking in the beginning too, as the topic of undercutting was never brought up to us students. I think personally I just felt a respect towards my instructor to never dream of taking away her job.

Even after educated, there are too many fuzzy lines about how much to pay who and under what circumstance. Rakkasah dancers are not paid, right? They have to pay travel expenses and costuming to dance, it's an expense. Does that expense really pay off? I suppose if they are vending, too, or if they are a big name or have a dvd to sell. Dancers dance for charities as well. And Ren fairs, and parades. And troupes dance at coffee shops. It becomes too confusing to the average Joe-ann dancer . Too many fuzzy lines, too many geographical differences, too many pro dancers who admit they have at least once undercutted or agreed to dance for less at a gig.

Not saying it's right or wrong. I highly respect those who can make a living at dancing and their jobs and what they are paid SHOULD be protected. But undercutting is probably going to be a problem forever

apologies for the grammar, 'm doped up on cold medicine

wow! thanks Nissa, I really appreciate you sharing that. What a beautiful compliment. Mirage really ties hard to maintain ethical behavior AND we work a lot...it is possible to have it both ways. I just won't accept the excuse that a dancer has to be underhanded to get jobs.

Hi Lauren, no such thing as Switzerland when you are dancing for money. That big muddy Mississippi river can't protect you. muah ha ha. As far as turf goes, you are welcome to step where ever you want when ever you want as far as I am concerned...who doesn't love Lauren? If you don't then I wonder about you. Congrats on your Aya gig! I want to come cheer you on next time i'm in town. Keep me posted as to when you will be dancing. All I request is one Turkish drop.
he he

Originally Posted by samiramirage

wow! thanks Nissa, I really appreciate you sharing that. What a beautiful compliment. Mirage really ties hard to maintain ethical behavior AND we work a lot...it is possible to have it both ways. I just won't accept the excuse that a dancer has to be underhanded to get jobs.

Hi Lauren, no such thing as Switzerland when you are dancing for money. That big muddy Mississippi river can't protect you. muah ha ha. As far as turf goes, you are welcome to step where ever you want when ever you want as far as I am concerned...who doesn't love Lauren? If you don't then I wonder about you. Congrats on your Aya gig! I want to come cheer you on next time i'm in town. Keep me posted as to when you will be dancing. All I request is one Turkish drop.
he he

Bless your luscious little heart... but I think the Mississippi is WHY everyone still likes me.

When you're in town, I'd rather come see YOU dance, so let me know... And if you see me do a Turkish drop, call 911 immediately!

Hey Jessenia, your on Oahu right? Im sharing that rock with you now. Just slowly getting to know some of the local dancers and feeling my way around here...I keep getting distracted by all of the oceans and flowers and stuff. I'm allowed a honeymoon with Hawaii right? Looking forward to meeting you.

What you are describing is more dancers dancing for dancer right? I think that is a totally different thing from dancing for the general public on a regular basis. A special event, hafla or showcase is a learning experience for everyone involved. It is a reward in and of itself to be appreciated by other dancers in a safe environment.

What we are griping about, correct me if I am wrong, is the chronic undercutters that walk into an establishment and say "Ill dance for free every Tuesday" or "If you hire me then I will bring all of my friends and they will wear costumes and dance around for free" or "what do you pay your dancer? ...Ill dance for 40 dollars less"

These are the "business people" that I have issue with.

Aww. Thanks Lauren. I'll let you know for sure.

ok. note taken about the Turkish drop. I still wouldnt put it past you.

*can't wait to see Samira modeling Akai veils*

Man. I know Hawaii has survived volcanic eruptions, war, etc.... but can it survive a meeting between Samira and Jes'ennia?

I'm thinking not.

Originally Posted by gotraqs

When I talked to the owner at Aya Sofia, she told me to come in some time when there is a dancer, and that she would have the dancer get me up to dance, to show my stuff, I guess. Hopefully you weren't presented with the same proposal. I could have just seen the look on the dancer's face when that went over, like a lead balloon. Needless to say, I didn't take her up on the offer. :) She did seem very nice though.

Nope, I danced there for a private party the first time and Alicia and I sort of hit it off. I've danced for her there a couple of times, and co-sponsored an event with her & Diana last month.

Although I have come to see several other dancers perform at Aya Sofia, and I guess they usually do get me up to dance. I think it helps when the owner sees you patronizing their establishment, and can see that your fellow dancers like & respect you.

But that's not why I do it. I just like to go out and see dancing! I go to Momo's fairly regularly, too, but I'm not going to hold my breath for a dance spot over there, I'd be totally wrong for that place!

Samira! Yes I'm right outside of Waikiki..welcome to paradise:) I've been over here for more than two years and am still blown away by the beauty. Have you been to the other islands yet? We did a short trip to big Island over xmas and fell in love, we are looking at houses over there on Hilo side.

You will love it here. A great resource for local stuff is Malia and Sunny's magazine/site at Belly Dance Hawaii

Are you dancing at Anna Bananas on the 13th? I am battling the remnants of a cold right now but will probably be there to watch:)

I'm in Waikiki...Diamond Head side! We're neighbors. (Sorry for the hijacking of the thread! I'm just excited.)

I have spent some time on Maui and Kauai. The Big Island is next on my list.

I plan on dancing at Anna Banana'a next week. I'll see you there! Hopefully the cold will be a thing of the past by then. Come up and say hello!