Thread: Seeking happy stories of communities banding together

My dance community is having a meeting soon to discuss rates, etc.

It is our hope that we can get a significant number of local dancers to meet regularly and form a strong alliance of sorts to advocate for higher pay and more professionalism.

I'd love to be able to encourage them with a few success stories, and I know you guys have some. Please share them???

We've had frank discussions around here (online discussions, but discussions nonetheless), and it has resulted in an increase in wages, especially for private parties.

When I first turned pro around here, the going rates for private parties was $125-$150 (for a 20-30minute set, circa 2001-02).

In the past few years we've gotten them up to a floor of $175, and I personally am quoting $250, with a minimum (for a 'gram lasting no longer than 15 minutes) of $200.

Restaurant rates have been harder to budge upwards, but we have done it. In comparison to other cities, the rates here are on the upper end of the medium range. The rates I'm personally aware of range from $40 to $75 per set, with sets ranging from fifteen to thirty minutes. (When I started, the restaurant pay was $25-$50 per set as far as I know.) The problem I've been having lately with my mainstay gig is not pay so much as it is the dwindling of tipping, which is a separate issue.

DC/Baltimore also has been doing quite well in raising rates.
3 years ago most restaurants in DC were around $60 for a 20 min show (there were some that paid more and some that paid less. I'm talking averages and the "talked about" typical rate). Baltimore was worse with atmosphere gigs $100 for 2 hours. I started my "typical rates" page around 4 years ago- so have been tracking things since then.
Party rates that were typically quoted started around $125 with more experienced dancers quoting $150-$175.
Since then we've started some yahoo groups, and local tribes and through communication and sticking together have really made a difference.
Currently the lower venues are ranging from $75-$85 with many places at or above $100 per show. *Some* of the higher paying venues don't seem to stick around as long, but they serve a very valuable purpose in providing us venues to refer to when negotiating with other owners. Through online discussions we've pretty much decided that any new venues should be started at no less than $100 per show. The current rates increases and "$100 or more" goes for Baltimore as well as the DC metro area. We've also been raising rates at current venues- that's slow going, but working. There are a couple places that still have not raised rates- but they have lost the more in demand dancers.
I recently heard of one Baltimore place that pays $60 for 3 10 minute shows over the course of 2 hours. I was saddened (and honestly nauseous) when I heard about this, so while there are a couple hold outs in the "will dance for peanuts and the love of it" I'd estimate that to be a tiny tiny percentage of the community. Most realize to love the dance is to support the community, work with respect for oneself and the dance and work (even part time) by making self-sustaining choices which enables one to continually invest in the dance.
As for parties - the current minimum is now $200 with many quoting more as their own personal minimum.
Our rates were essentially the SAME for 15 years! After calculating the inflation of what our rates SHOULD be we found that restaurants should be around $95 (or more) and parties around $200 or more. In 3 or so short years we've reached that goal. I believe we will continue in the right direction as we've seen what happens when stagnation sets in.
Building awareness is a constant thing as there are always new dancers coming in as well as teachers who have not had any pro dancing experience to share.

Vegas has been a great community in many ways. Our professionals have raised their rates and communicate with each other.

Additionally, our organizers are all on an online "movers & shakers" yahoogroup so we don't book events over one another and we can give each other a "heads up" when we are negotiating with artists.

Truly, Vegas has been an awesome place as far as creating a belly dance community that RAKS!!

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Vegas has been a great community in many ways. Our professionals have raised their rates and communicate with each other.

Additionally, our organizers are all on an online "movers & shakers" yahoogroup so we don't book events over one another and we can give each other a "heads up" when we are negotiating with artists.

Truly, Vegas has been an awesome place as far as creating a belly dance community that RAKS!!

Organizers, YES.... nice community..YES....but pay raises?? Not sure about that between dancers...but this is a happy thread...so l too, will point to the positive!..l;,

Events and corporates are way better than restaurants here. I think Vegas is under what most dancers are quoting here. Let's hope the NEW Year will make it better for those restaurant dancers!

Minneapolis has a guild....if no Minneapolis dancers post here Lauren you may want to contact them. Guild of Oriental Dance Home Page

The fight for higher rates in DC has been interesting, because some restaurants have been paying up to $150 since 2000 and some people have been charging $200 and more for private parties since that time, too. It wasn't the rule back then, but it still (thankfully) happened.

I couldn't believe the range for a restaurant show could go from $50 to $150, or that dancers were charging anywhere between $125 and $200+ for a show. I know one dancer in the area has been charging upwards of $400 for a party for a few years now.

Thank goodness the discussion groups were set up so people could actually get the word out ..g.: It hasn't seemed to be a problem of malicious undercutting, but just understandable ignorance of the situation and people not feeling they could or should ask for more (understandable, too, given the nature of some owners around here).

The lists have allowed for so much exchange of information that remedies these situations. Many dancers have been asking for negotiation tips and putting them into use where they work.

It has been a great learning experience on these groups, seeing how community members interact.

Originally Posted by kamilia

Thank goodness the discussion groups were set up so people could actually get the word out ..g.: It hasn't seemed to be a problem of malicious undercutting, but just understandable ignorance of the situation and people not feeling they could or should ask for more (understandable, too, given the nature of some owners around here).

The lists have allowed for so much exchange of information that remedies these situations. Many dancers have been asking for negotiation tips and putting them into use where they work.

It has been a great learning experience on these groups, seeing how community members interact.

i can't agree more..........in baltimore we had a HUUUUUGE undercutting problem by 2 schools and some individuals..........some was/is malicious undercutting, but most was ignorance..........since then, older venues have increased their low rates around 35%, with intent to raise again, and newer ones starting between $65 and $85, but now we're agreeing to start new venues at $100. some of the worst undercutters are now charging the competitive rates, seeing that dancers are actually GETTING them! (why do a gig where the rate would be 3 shows for the same cost as one at a well paying venue, that means working 3 times as hard)

we still have one school as a problem child, and a couple newbies, but they are now the exception, and we're all working on THEM too...........

it CAN be done and IS being done in other states..........just stay the course, it's happening!

I'm curious about the differences in the general cost of living in all of these regions. As of now, I can't imagine this market paying $400 for a half-hour appearance, and it will be another year or two at least before we see any restaurants paying $100/set.

Originally Posted by ruta21030

i can't agree more..........in baltimore we had a HUUUUUGE undercutting problem by 2 schools and some individuals..........some was/is malicious undercutting, but most was ignorance..........since then, older venues have increased their low rates around 35%, with intent to raise again, and newer ones starting between $65 and $85, but now we're agreeing to start new venues at $100. some of the worst undercutters are now charging the competitive rates, seeing that dancers are actually GETTING them! (why do a gig where the rate would be 3 shows for the same cost as one at a well paying venue, that means working 3 times as hard)

we still have one school as a problem child, and a couple newbies, but they are now the exception, and we're all working on THEM too...........

it CAN be done and IS being done in other states..........just stay the course, it's happening!

Yeah, even the malicious types eventually realize that their mission is...nonsense, to put it lightly. Once enough people are educated about rates, they won't have supporters and they'll feel really dumb.

It's been so fascinating because some people that are dismissed as icky undercutters, who deserve a few cranks on the dish rack ..g.: , just turn out to be uniformed or timid in negotiating. They also respond well to a friendly conversation. We all have been there, and we just need some tips to get on the right track.

Although there will always be a special few, it's best just to get everyone involved and spread the word!

Check out Middle Eastern Dance Guild of Eugene - MEDGE

The Middle Eastern Dance Guild of Eugene has been around since the early 90's and is thriving but the main focus is not on setting rates for professional dancers because there are so almost no opportunities for restaurant type gigs in our city. Some dancers work with talent agencies.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I'm curious about the differences in the general cost of living in all of these regions. As of now, I can't imagine this market paying $400 for a half-hour appearance, and it will be another year or two at least before we see any restaurants paying $100/set.

DC and Northern Virginia are freaking expensive. I always heard Baltimore was generally less expensive, but now costs are getting up there, too (Ruta? Thoughts? Poke me with the soft cushions if I'm wrong ..l;, ).

But then again, our costs across the nation are pretty comparable in terms of training, music, makeup, music editing programs, CD-R's, costumes, transportation, props, etc. I know there has to be variation in price, but how much? Some rates that I hear of don't make sense for any dancer, no matter where s/he is, just because of costs that go into the art.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I'm curious about the differences in the general cost of living in all of these regions...

Those rates are in the DC/Baltimore region - which has a HUGE cost of living range. Truly. We've got crack houses to gargantuan mansions and everything in between.
What I find interesting and pertinent to these numbers is also ones annual income from dance, the average price per show a dancer gets, how many shows/month he/she does, if she chooses to rely on dance income or how much, how long the higher priced ($120 and up) regular prices and Walmart priced venues last.
For party examples it's good to think things through- a $400 per show dancer might do one private party show a month and that might be perfect number for her so that is a wonderful decision. Other people charging in the $220-$250 range might get 8-10 or sometimes more parties a month and she might need that income. So that's a good decision for her as it is within the "standard" or "typical" range.
I have experience with $400 shows as my Bollywood Mujra shows are $400 or more and they honestly rarely get booked despite little to no other active professional Mujra dancers in the area. Belly dance has tons of competition and granted also a wider market. But realistically $400/shows are not as frequent as $220-$250 shows. I wish they were!
Another thing I feel is important to consider in your talks Lauren is briefly addressing the issue of honesty in communication. I've seen people with good intentions (of raising standards and rates) in a community exaggerate, mislead or belittle to try to get rates up. The integrity of your community and it's members trust in each other really requires people to be honest and respectful with their peers. IMHO anyway.
It has been suggested to me that I lie about the "typical" rates I have on my page. I feel that would take away from the integrity of the list. That's why I added the "what new venues should be started at" figures to the list as an honest way to represent what we have going on AND what people are supporting as realistic and fair for what the new standard is.
Information to think about discussing: A realistic assessment of what rates are (the full range of them, the "typical" rates, the terrible rates, the great rates and how long dancing has been or was at all of these different venues) is good to know. How long the "typical" rate has been around, what inflation would dictate it should be now. A good hard look at the costs of the dance is also valuable. The number of places that might be open to having dance. How your community can support students wanting venues to perform. How your community can share information- the performers AND teachers (who must communicate to their students of course)... I think these would all be positive things to discuss that also help support performers, teachers and students.

Hi Lauren,

I'm one of those Minneapolis dancers Samira mentioned. :-) We do indeed have a guild here. Like anything, it has its warts, but it's also got its good points and since it's been around a while (was formed in the 1980s) there's a lot to learn from it.

One of the things to know about the Mpls Guild is that, although it sets/manages the restaurant rates and is *supposed* to set a *minimum* party guideline, it is not just a professional dancer organization. In fact, at this time, I don't think there is even a professional on the managing board. (However, pretty much all the pros in town are either voting/dues paying members or have been and generally respect the guidelines even if they've let their own memberships lapse.)

As one of the members (and a former board member) I'd be happy to give you more info/perspectives on our guild, it's history, what works, what may be different, etc. if you want to write me off-forum--you can email me directly at mirah at mirahammal dot com.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by TanyaLV

Organizers, YES.... nice community..YES....but pay raises?? Not sure about that between dancers...but this is a happy thread...so l too, will point to the positive!..l;,

Events and corporates are way better than restaurants here. I think Vegas is under what most dancers are quoting here. Let's hope the NEW Year will make it better for those restaurant dancers!

Perhaps. Although I was mostly thinking that there have been some very productive discussions on the public list that has definitely contributed to keeping the baby bunnies from undercutting and teaching the newbies to recognize that a few lessons doesn't make one a professional bellydancer.

I won't deny that there are still pay issues in the restaurants here. Frankly, I think that the restaurant market in Vegas is tough. But there is a lot more corporate work and private events that do pay quite well.

Originally Posted by kamilia

DC and Northern Virginia are freaking expensive. I always heard Baltimore was generally less expensive, but now costs are getting up there, too (Ruta? Thoughts? Poke me with the soft cushions if I'm wrong ..l;, ).

But then again, our costs across the nation are pretty comparable in terms of training, music, makeup, music editing programs, CD-R's, costumes, transportation, props, etc. I know there has to be variation in price, but how much? Some rates that I hear of don't make sense for any dancer, no matter where s/he is, just because of costs that go into the art.

well, yes and no..........there are misconceptions.........while cost of living IS lower, (a little), the cost of doing business is in proportion to it, AND the average salary per capita isn't as high either...........arguably, the DC/VA customer TENDS to be more affluent, as are some of the venues, which many are 'white cloth' places where the average check per person is $40-$60 or more.......in Baltimore, the customer tends to be less affluent, and the MAJORITY of venues are small, informal places with and average check of $15-$25 per person........there are exceptions of course..........i'm in negotiations with one that $100 per set isn't impossible........in fact, it's a spankin new restaurant that is WAITING TIL THEY CAN PUT IT IN THE BUDGET before starting the dance aspect (what a concept!), and while the gap between those markets shows a trend towards closing, for the most part, with the exception of some posh neighborhoods, baltimore has a strong blue-collar aspect, while DC n VA are definitely more affluent

just cuz cost of living is lower in Balt, doesn't mean they get a break in buying produce, fish, meat, linens, payroll, etc............it's in proportion, and now with rents getting higher, and most pay staying the same, Baltimore venues really aren't getting the breaks assumed..........one venue i work with has VISIBLY struggled for a year and a half, but never cancelled a dancer, cut their pay, and in fact, increased the rate by 35% and is contemplating another raise to compete..........

Originally Posted by ruta21030

one venue i work with has VISIBLY struggled for a year and a half, but never cancelled a dancer, cut their pay, and in fact, increased the rate by 35% and is contemplating another raise to compete..........

It's stories like these that get me so frustrated with the other owners who cry poor and make our lives miserable! Look at the ones who really aren't doing well, and see how they still value us more.

yeah, true, we just can't automatically assume a venue is making money tho....having seen first hand what kind of things go on behind the line as it were....BUT!!!!!!.......venues crying foul when the owners have conspicuous multiple homes and 'spensive cars..........yeah, wet noodle time............i'm with ya there kamilia

TOTALLY, ruta .p::