Thread: St. Louis Dancers-$20/set is a rip! Stand up!

Originally Posted by amiraates

Also don't offer your services to restaurants, this will give the owner a chance to say, oh well we have so many dancers wanting to dance in our restaurant.......
They should call you or ask you. If you are a dancer there will be places where the restaurant owners see you dance, like clubs, a party, an event or other restaurants you work.

Its not always this simple in my experience. If I waited for gigs to come to me, I would do a lot more waiting than dancing. Many of the long standing gigs I have had the pleasure of doing have been a result of my troupe setting up meetings with the owners. Many overworked restaurant owners don't have to time, inclination or energy to scout dancers and I don't see anything wrong with introducing yourself and your services. Don't pounce on them during the dinner rush, don't be too pushy...just let them know that you are around, professional, talented and experienced. If they don't know you exist then they can't hire you! Nothing worse than an owner hiring one of the server's 18 year old friends who has taken 3 lessons and a bought a hip scarf just because they didnt know anyone else.

samiramirage Let me tell you, it sure ain't me dancing for 20 bucks a set.

Hmmm, I've heard you can be had for hummus, you tart! (uh, you do know that I'm joking, right?)

I'll be going tomorrow. Maybe it will be like Gotraqs says and only the non-problem children will come out, but maybe not. There's no way to know in advance, but I don't want to be complaining about something and not making an effort to correct it. <shrugs> No matter what, it's a good excuse for gooey butter cake!

The meeting is still on, in spite of the weather. Not everyone will be able to make it, of course, but we're going ahead with things.

Good Luck with your meeting ladies!
I think this is a Great idea!

I was one of the lucky ones- when I 1st started performing-
a fellow bellydancer informed me of exactly what the going rates were.
I was very thankful for that!
And I inform students, I figured if I don't tell them-
how are they going to know?

SO HOW DID THE MEETING GO??

I'm reading this thread with great interest - one, because the restaurant dancers here in seattle did the same thing and got together to discuss gig rates. great things happened! we standardized rates for restaurant work and private parties, down to nitpicky things like upcharges for costume changes, extra sets, travel and waiting times, and prices for dancing at a regular venue on an off night. many of the dancers realized they should be charging more and upped their prices, and a couple of the local venues were pressured into raising pay. dancers MUST get together and COMMUNICATE.

the other reason I'm reading the thread is because my inlaws are all in st louis (and my husband is there on family business as I type) so I feel connected for some bizarre reason. :)

The meeting was a GREAT START. We had a wide range of dancers in attendance (a variety of troupes/studios, and some independents). The vibe was very positive, and the discussion was reasoned and civilized. Everyone was largely on the same page...we WANT things to be better, and we are willing to cooperate to make that happen. We discussed current restaurant and private party rates, but only what was the personal experience of everyone in the room (i.e. we tried to avoid any "I think so-and-so is charging $X" type of discussion). We came to initial agreement on base rates for restaurants, private parties, nursing homes, and weddings.

Of course, there's still a ton to discuss...class rates, increasing demand while contending with oversupply, etc. But we have already set our next meeting date, and everything looks good.

Naturally, there were some key parties missing from the meeting, but the vibe of solidarity makes me think that if we keep going the way we are going, we will be able to pull these other people in...if only because they realize that they are hurting themselves financially by not getting on board.

Lauren??? Eva??? More thoughts???

Nisaa

I was really REALLY pleased with how things went! And I thought the turnout was exceptional given the bad weather, inconvenient location, and Friday night time slot. I think we'll have an even better turnout next time.

I love that we have the potential to raise rates at one restaurant where lots of dancers from different groups perform in particular -- that would never have happened without this meeting.

I hope, over time, we'll be able to form a sort of loose guild, or association. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I was really REALLY pleased with how things went! And I thought the turnout was exceptional given the bad weather, inconvenient location, and Friday night time slot. I think we'll have an even better turnout next time.

I love that we have the potential to raise rates at one restaurant where lots of dancers from different groups perform in particular -- that would never have happened without this meeting.

I hope, over time, we'll be able to form a sort of loose guild, or association. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

rock ON ladies!

Yes, congratulations!!!!! You guys are my idols!

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Lauren??? Eva??? More thoughts???

Nisaa

I think the meeting went really great, as well.

I have been pretty frustrated trying to find work for the last months. I have even mulled throwing in the towel, and putting my energy into something else. Problem is, I like dancing so much, and when I don't dance for a week or more, I start missing it. :) I feel more positive about things since the meeting. I think teachers educating their students about ethics, rates, etc., and encouraging students to dance only at haflas and other informal venues will help the general public appreciate the difference between a trained dancer, and an untrained dancer. The festivals and other public performances should probably be reserved for the more advanced dancers (including advanced students), who will be able to represent the dance in a more professional light. Believe me, I was out performing out way before I was psychologically or technically ready, and I don't claim to be any "Diva of the Dance", but I feel very confident in my ability to favorbly represent oriental dance, and I couldn't say that I felt that way when I started out 10 years ago, or even 4 years ago. Many people, I am sure progress faster, but for me it took much longer to feel comfortable as a performer, than it did for me to master the basic movements.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

You know, while I feel that banding together as a community and keeping communication open are critical to solving the undercutting problem, I believe that the real long-term solution to this problem is raising the perception of the dance among both the general public AND students of the dance. And what I mean by this is helping people - ESPECIALLY STUDENTS - to see that Middle Eastern dance is a REAL dance form, a SERIOUS dance form, and for those who choose to "go pro", it takes a lot of commitment and hard work.

I think the idea that belly dance is a dance that "anybody can do" is an idea that a lot of us (dancers/teachers) embraced, but now that has come back to bite us. In the professional realm of teaching and performance, this is NOT a dance that "anybody can do" anymore than flamenco, ballet, tap, etc. are dances that "anybody can do" as a professional.

I told a student the other day, can you imagine a ballet student with ONE year of training ONE HOUR, ONCE A WEEK, dancing professionally? Yet we see this in belly dance all the time.

There needs to be a paradigm shift in how we perceive this dance.

Nisaa

Nisaa, I definitely agree with what you're saying. I think we need to be much more protective of what the GP sees under the label 'bellydance' for one thing! And I think we should make it a goal, as a group, to present the dance in a positive light to the GP whenever possible.

However, I still believe it's a dance that 'anyone can do.' I guess I'd liken it to ballroom dance, or figure skating. Lots of people take ballroom classes and go out dancing on Saturday nights, or ice skate, and enjoy the activity very much. Without any kind of professional aspirations at all.

I think we need to be more vocal with our students about the line between having fun and performing within the community and what's involved with being a professional entertainer.

Wouldn't it be nice if, through our little group, we could put together a network of pros to dance at festivals, etc. instead of putting our students out there? To build a more professional public image of our dance and generate (maybe) some interest in what we do?

And at the same time create more community events where students can perform for each other and share their love of the dance in a supportive environment?

I firmly believe that both can happen, as both happen in so many other art forms/hobbies.

I certainly agree that it IS a dance that "anyone can do" in the sense of performing in recitals and haflas. Festivals have always been an ambiguous realm for me (I'll explain better below). Restaurants, private bookings, and more formal arts showcases more clearly fall into the realm of professional venues.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wouldn't it be nice if, through our little group, we could put together a network of pros to dance at festivals, etc. instead of putting our students out there? To build a more professional public image of our dance and generate (maybe) some interest in what we do?

I think that's a great idea, on a theoretical level. But here's where the difficulties arise. I think that at cultural festivals and the like, assuming it's a staged show (and that is what my experience has been), it's important to have a structured, planned program (i.e. polished) showcasing a variety of styles and ideally including a mix of soloists and group dances. I know this is something I can put together with my advanced students because the prerequisite for their participation is a commitment to learning the choreographies, attending rehearsals, etc.

With local pros, I'm not so sure I could pull it off, because (and I don't mean this to sound critical, I'm just stating my personal experience) so many in our community operate under the "oh, I'll just pick my music the day before the show" mentality. This just doesn't fly for me when putting together a festival set or any other staged kind of show. I know I could depend on other local professionals to bring additional variety to the program, but the "structure" and "planning" is what scares me a bit.

Really, pro dancers need to start seeing the dance differently too...the dance is serious, performance is serious...i.e. we need to stop pulling stuff out of our a--; a staged performance such as a festival or a showcase merits some advance planning.

Sorry if this was too tangential, but it popped into my brain...When I saw "network" I first went GREAT! and a few seconds later went YIKES!

And at the same time create more community events where students can perform for each other and share their love of the dance in a supportive environment?

I totally agree, and I am hopefully I can start doing more in this arena; right now my annual recital just sucks the life right out of me!

Nisaa

One thing I have noticed is that around here there is really only one kind of show, and that is an open lineup kind of show. These are certainly fun, but I'd like to also see professional shows. However, to produce these, you have to have an audience-base that will buy tickets. And to have that, you have to establish a reputation for producing a quality show. So it can be a catch-22.

We may do an all-pro show somedaysoon in Carbondale. Being on a university campus, we have the ability to draw attendance from the university as well as the community at large. There are enough people here interested in cultural events. We have a repeat audience base because even our shows with student performances are well-rehearsed, well-costumed, and grounded with plenty of strong professional dancers. Plus we have a nice venue and technical crew to make us look good.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I believe that the real long-term solution to this problem is raising the perception of the dance among both the general public AND students of the dance. And what I mean by this is helping people - ESPECIALLY STUDENTS - to see that Middle Eastern dance is a REAL dance form, a SERIOUS dance form, and for those who choose to "go pro", it takes a lot of commitment and hard work. [....] I told a student the other day, can you imagine a ballet student with ONE year of training ONE HOUR, ONCE A WEEK, dancing professionally? Yet we see this in belly dance all the time.

There needs to be a paradigm shift in how we perceive this dance.

YES. Happily for my sake, my first teacher would have smacked me if I danced for $20.

Unfortunately, some instructors don't just overlook this issue, but rather encourage their newbie students to prematurely seek paid work instead of advising them to work hard, hang around and "go pro" when their dancing is professional caliber. I'm sure it's fun for the student and I'm sure it makes the instructor feel proud....but for the rest of us who work hard, it's rather demoralizing. It just flies in the face of all the hard work we put into our craft to make it look so good.

The only thing more frightening than Six Week Wonders performing is when they actually start teaching....

In light of all the discussions of undercutting, I believe teachers have a responsibility to at least try to keep this kind of behavior in check. It's really getting out of control in the community at large. I'm gonna start a spinoff thread when I get home from work....

To the ladies of St. Louis, congrats on taking such a huge step in the right direction. Go get 'em!

~Maiya