Thread: St. Louis Dancers-$20/set is a rip! Stand up!

Get up. Stand up. Stand up for your rights, like my good friend Bob Marley.

$40 for 2 sets in a restaurant in St. Louis is ridiculous! How about something crazy, like $40-$50 for one set?

Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.

That's insane.

I'd rather snuggle up in my flannel jammies, a cozy blanket, a mug of tea and my hubby.

$20???
Craziness.

Wow, what restaurant is that????

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wow, what restaurant is that????

If we are going to "out" the restaurant, we should also "out" the dancers.

Eva, you don't have to 'out' the restaurant or the dancers here if you'd rather not, but maybe we can talk about this on Friday???

There are dancers offering to dance for free, for tips only, two or three dancers for the price of one, etc. all over the city. Getting everyone on the same page is kinda the point of Friday's meeting. $20 a set is ridiculous!!

Yep. Let's discuss this at the meeting. I am going to be surprised if other dancers in STL don't know this (which restaurants, and who is dancing there). I am tempted to "out" people, but I agree that the more constructive course of action is to have a discussion as a community. Now, if the majority of us agree to certain standards, and a few continue to undercut, I think that's when we should move to the "naming/shaming" phase.

Nisaa

Okay, I'll stop standing on the sidelines egging for blood. Good luck with your peace talks!

I don't want to "out" anyone or any particular restaurants on a public forum. I danced for less than I should have for 2.5 years, simply because I just assumed that either that was what everyone else was getting paid in town, or that the dance company took a cut.

Many times it is simply a case of being out of the loop. Getting people into the loop as much as possible would be the best course of action.

I don't think we need a repeat of the McCarthy era! Oy vey! :) Call out the communists! :)

Let me tell you, it sure ain't me dancing for 20 bucks a set.

I agree, Eva. I think the majority of the undercutting happens out of naivete, not malice. That's why I post my rates openly on my site. Sure, someone could easily use that info to price themselves below me. But for every one of those, I think there could be five up-and-comers who would have really low-balled themselves if they didn't know what the going rates were who might have a clue after visiting my site.

And i agree, the best course of action is to share info openly.

When I was first starting, I was told about the evils of undercutting. BUT I wasn't told how much anyone might charge for anything. I never knew whether/how much my troupe director was getting, so although I knew what I got paid for, say, a nursing home show or a private party, I didn't know how much was being charged. How are you supposed to NOT undercut if you don't have any idea what other people are charging????

This is why I (heart) Samira Shuruk for her site.

(p.s. I assume rates in the city are higher than what I get over here, by the way...)

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

YI am going to be surprised if other dancers in STL don't know this (which restaurants, and who is dancing there).

*I* don't know, and I wouldn't assume that everyone does. How would they? I only know the rates at places I've actually danced, and $20 wasn't it.

P.S. I also think it is only productive to share information in situations where the dancers just don't have a clue. Maybe they can be informed that could be getting better pay for everyone. In cases where the dancers already know better, I don't see the point in sharing info. If a person knows what the rates are in other venues, and continues to undercharge, there is nothing we could say that would make any difference.

Even though I don't perform in restraunts anymore $20.00 bucks hell no. not even worth getting off the couch.

Alrana

I think a positive approach is the best. The meeting should include discussion of ways to get the message from instructors to potential performers about what qualities a professional dancer should posses (knowledge, skills, training, etc.). Maybe teachers can keep their students and dancers up-to-date on going rates, and ethical practices. My husband, the perennial capitalist, reminds me occasionally that dancers will get what the market can bear. He points out that companies compete with lower prices all the time. But, I'm sure that the companies never compete so much that they aren't able to pay their shareholders. If they did that, they would be out of business. Money brought in should well exceed money put out. Being competitive in dance is only beneficial if you plan on doing gigs in bulk, and obtaining repeat customers. Dance gigs are not a commodity in the same way that products are.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

*I* don't know, and I wouldn't assume that everyone does. How would they? I only know the rates at places I've actually danced, and $20 wasn't it.

I guess I assumed that *I* had named names in conversations I have had with various STL-area dancers. But maybe I did manage to keep my mouth shut, for once...

Originally Posted by gotraqs

P.S. I also think it is only productive to share information in situations where the dancers just don't have a clue. Maybe they can be informed that could be getting better pay for everyone. In cases where the dancers already know better, I don't see the point in sharing info. If a person knows what the rates are in other venues, and continues to undercharge, there is nothing we could say that would make any difference.

Well, I don't know...there isn't really a clear-cut distinction here. At the cheap-o venues that I know of, I am sure the troupe director is aware that her rates are ridiculously low, but I am not so sure the students that she sends there are...

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I guess I assumed that *I* had named names in conversations I have had with various STL-area dancers. But maybe I did manage to keep my mouth shut, for once...

..l;,

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Well, I don't know...there isn't really a clear-cut distinction here. At the cheap-o venues that I know of, I am sure the troupe director is aware that her rates are ridiculously low, but I am not so sure the students that she sends there are...

It's more than likely the new dancers are simply naive.

I don't think that a dancer can be in the business for so long and not have some inkling of the going rate. How could anyone drink kool-aid for so long yet not realize what flavor it is?

I was thinking about if there is indeed some sort of accordance about the pay rate, how will a dancer successfully negotiate the new terms to the restaurant owner? A restaurant owner could possibly easily kick the dancer/dancers to the curb and possibly bring in a dancer who will work for the original low amount.

I dunno... i guess I'm just thinkin' waaay too much and that it's REALLY, REALLY late!

I just want to say that for the record, not ALL St Louis Dancers get paid 20 bucks for a set. This is not acceptable or standard behavior for professionals in our community. I comfortably made a living there for years, as did a number of my troupe members...and it wasn't by charging 20 dollars a show. Almost every market is saturated with beginners who want to perform outside of haflas and I agree it is usually ignorance that reduces these dancers to such low wages. I also agree that it is the instructors obligation to educate her students about pricing and ethics in the workplace. Egos sometimes take over and baby dancers get overzelous...its our job to reign them in and remind them of the bigger picture.
Think of apprentices in any other craft/art form, its not just about the execution of the art itself, its also about behavior and respect off of the stage.

Here's part of the problem- it's not the directors who are interested in fair wages who will be showing up for a meeting on fair wages, right?

Originally Posted by samiramirage

I also agree that it is the instructors obligation to educate her students about pricing and ethics in the workplace. Egos sometimes take over and baby dancers get overzelous...its our job to reign them in and remind them of the bigger picture.

Yes! I often say to students: "In what professional dance form that you know of could a dancer taking classes for one hour once a week begin performing professionally after a year or two of said instruction?" It is absolutely up to teachers to guide students to understand that we ARE a REAL dance form and to be professional in this dance form requires STUDY and EFFORT. No one is entitled to perform at professional bookings.

Think of apprentices in any other craft/art form, its not just about the execution of the art itself, its also about behavior and respect off of the stage

Yes again! Well said!!!

Originally Posted by gotraqs

Here's part of the problem- it's not the directors who are interested in fair wages who will be showing up for a meeting on fair wages, right?

It remains to be seen who will be showing up. But those of us who do come can open some lines of communication and share some information.

We'll never be able to control the actions of other people. But that doesn't mean that those of us who ARE interested in open communication can't pursue it.

p.s. I know of two dancers who raised their rates after seeing mine posted on my site. In both cases, they communicated to me that they didn't realize they had been undercharging. So sharing the info DOES help, even though we can't force anyone to charge a certain rate.

Would anyone be willing to tell me what the "good" rates for restaurant sets are in St. Louis and surrounding burbs? PMs are fine if you don't want to post it publicly.

If and when there are any Middle Eastern restaurants in Carbondale, I would like to use St. Louis area rates as the starting point. Do you think this is appropriate? Carbondale is a small city, but its also a university town, so there are more people interested in cultural events (and on the other hand, cheap student labor and endless belly bunnies that spontaneously generate). There have been potential venues in the past. My group has spent considerable efforts, sometimes hours at the negotiating table, trying to convince them to hire a professional dancer (e.g. one of us) only to be undercut by clueless untrained girls (as in girls who have had 10 lessons and zero amateur performing experience and no costumes). And I guess hiring is the wrong word really, when they are paying $20 for an entire evening of work. Or worse, just for tips. Karmic justice: these venues all went out of business quickly.

Sedonia

e-mailing you, Sedonia...

Wow...good luck, you guys--I hope you're able to get the offending dancers/venue on board for a more appropriate rate with a little open communication. So often these things do arise from people just not knowing any better, but it can be hard to fix once something's started.

I wish you St. Louis dancers the best with this and with getting/staying organized on the issue!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It remains to be seen who will be showing up. But those of us who do come can open some lines of communication and share some information.

We'll never be able to control the actions of other people. But that doesn't mean that those of us who ARE interested in open communication can't pursue it.

p.s. I know of two dancers who raised their rates after seeing mine posted on my site. In both cases, they communicated to me that they didn't realize they had been undercharging. So sharing the info DOES help, even though we can't force anyone to charge a certain rate.

Ditto in our area.......we had some raging undercutters for years, i assume so they can saturate the venues and collect as much as they can (quantity over quality, for the most part).....HOWEVER!
when the dancers in the tri state area started banding together, and several venues began increasing their rates, and THEN dancers threatening to back out, some of those undercutters have been heard to quote competitive rates....i guess they started doing the math....local dancers getting paid a fair wage for one set, meanwhile agreeing to do roughly 20-30 bucks per set meant working twice as hard (read, more sets to match the going rate) to make the same money as a dancer for only one set at one location....it became clear to them that asking for a higher wage made more sense than working dozens of crappy venues when you could get paid the same amount for fewer sets...........less wear and tear, more energy, better gigs

one of the worst paying venues just doubled their wage (still not completely competitive, but a step in the right direction), but if they cut ONE more set (3 sets now) down to 2 for the same wage, they WOULD be competitive.......so there's only one 'problem child' venue that still pays poorly left in this area....i hope the ladies there wake up and press, or walk.........

Thanks, Ruta, that's what I like to hear!

I can see where getting those gigs is a thrill to a newbie, but how long is it still going to feel worthwhile to buy costumes and music, suit up in full regalia, and put up with the realities of restaurant work for $20??? Surely they'll get tired of it after a while and either want some real pay or walk away?

When dancers work for 20$ they automatically attach themselves to a label called "cheap". And the restaurants who are using those dancers will get a bad name automatically as well, because they are using cheap dancers and newbies only.
So what are we having a cheap restaurant with cheap and newbie dancers.
In the Netherlands there are a lot of cheap and newbie dancers offering themselves for low prices or tips only. Restaurant owners have tried them but eventually they will go for the more expensive quality dancer. If owners offer me to dance for a cheap price I say: "no my price is this, but you can find cheap dancers, no problem". So I offer them to call the cheaper dancers. If you turn them down, they might not like it but they will not forget you and eventually they will get back to you.

Also don't offer your services to restaurants, this will give the owner a chance to say, oh well we have so many dancers wanting to dance in our restaurant.......
They should call you or ask you. If you are a dancer there will be places where the restaurant owners see you dance, like clubs, a party, an event or other restaurants you work.

I don't think that all dancers accepting rates that are too low, are doing so out of niaveness. (Is that a word???)

In Indiana, I have posted topics about this on Tribe, and on other forums, basically asking dancers to discuss this very same thing. I sure as heck don't dance for $20, but on that same note-how am I to know for sure what would be considered cheap, or expensive, if no one will speak up??

When I posted about this issue, I either received no responses...or responses that were so vague, that I didn't learn any more than I knew before. No one would give me actual rates that they use.

I personally think that it it unfair to all of the dancers in whatever area that you dance in...simply because you don't know if Mary Sue is dancing for $40 a pop, and Jill is dancing for $175. You just don't know...and no one wants to talk about it.