Thread: Undercutter in burbs of Chicago

There is a dancer in the suburbs of Chicago that undercut at a restaurant I was dancing at. She offered to dance for less and her reason was, because she is local. WHAT? So am I and the other 2 dancers that were there. Now we are all out of a gig because she is dancing for less. UGH!!! I'm so frustrated! She obviously knows she undercut everyone there because of her reason. When one of the dancers was not paid the right amount the other night and spoke to the owner, he said he didn't know what she was talking about, that we are lying about what we were getting paid in the first place. Then she found out about this dancer offering to dance for less. I am never going to that restaurant again!

bummer! do you think she did it on purpose? if that's the case that is really crappy- but it could have been out of pure ignorance.
around here it seems most the dancers share gigs and the one with most seniority takes over scheduling.

Do you know who she is? If so, confront her about it! Explain to her how she lost you and the other dancers their jobs and that her behavior is not professional. Very sad... I'm sorry this happened.

I don't know how she even met the owner. She wasn't dancing there or anywhere near there as far as I know. I know her name but I've never met her personally. None of us have danced with her before.

Oh man Mahira!
I'm so sorry to hear this. . .and I understand your frustrations!
I have been there!

Name her here and in your local community informational things. confront her as well. people need to know the behavior is unacceptable.

Is she a newer dancer? Not that its an excuse, but it may be a case of "i didn't know any better." in which case, she needs to be educated and FAST.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

Originally Posted by yasmindiab

Is she a newer dancer? Not that its an excuse, but it may be a case of "i didn't know any better." in which case, she needs to be educated and FAST.

I'm sorry this happened to you.

No, not a newbie. She has been dancing for 10 years. She teaches too.

Ugh, I'm hurting for you. It's not only the dancer's actions, but those of the restaurant owner. It's as if certain restaurant owners encourage animosity between us to keep our prices competitive.

I've heard of dancers adding an upcharge for a long commute, but NEVER a discount for being "local." You could always find a civilized way to call the dancer out on this in an e-mail. Position it as a helpful FYI. (Maybe she legitimately doesn't know better.)

Karma is a *****, and one can only hope the restaurant patrons will tire of The Great Princess Nippletassels and demand the real thing. (Or if that doesn't work, we'll just have to ride it out until the economy gets better and the belly bunnies latch on to the next dance trend).

It's as if certain restaurant owners encourage animosity between us to keep our prices competitive.

I feel that that is an absolutely right on and correct statement. Some really have very litle respect for dancers as a class and feel that it is their right to do what is in their best finacial interest. How you gonna prevent that? 10 years of teaching...wow...no excuse. She needs to be outed, or boycotted.

Originally Posted by anala

It's as if certain restaurant owners encourage animosity between us to keep our prices competitive.

I feel that that is an absolutely right on and correct statement. Some really have very litle respect for dancers as a class and feel that it is their right to do what is in their best finacial interest.

Well, they know many of us lack self-respect, are dying to play Pretty Pretty Princess and will dance for cookies to get a foot in the door....and they know these dancers are controllable and cheap. Of course dancers who charge appropriate rates and are well-educated are out of their league.

Those with class typically bow out when the "ish" hits the fan, but the cheaper ones will stop at nothing to get the job. That's when dancers alienate, stalk and undercut each other, and we all suffer....even if we're conscientious objectors.

From a restaurant owner's POV, why would you have bellydancers at your venue if you have that little respect for their livelihood and craft in the first place?

If she has been dancing 10 years and teaches, I'll bet she lurks on Bhuz and hopefully will see herself and think.

From a restaurant owner's POV, why would you have bellydancers at your venue if you have that little respect for their livelihood and craft in the first place?

Cause it brings in business...

Oh no, that is terrible! I'm so sorry this happened to you guys. I'd love to give the other dancer the benefit of the doubt, but it sounds like from what you've described, she intentionally undercut you. I certainly home Karma comes around to bite her in the ass...

Originally Posted by mahira-michelle

No, not a newbie. She has been dancing for 10 years. She teaches too.

Yikes!

That's awful.

Originally Posted by mahira-michelle

No, not a newbie. She has been dancing for 10 years. She teaches too.

Ughhhhhhhh. The worst part is that she teaches. Way to instill commendable business ethics in future generations of dancers....

Unfortunately, a lot of this problem comes from either pure ignorance or a misconception about our general "job description" (i.e. students thinking all it takes to "go pro" is to look cute in a costume and show up on time, that there's no skill or business savvy involved). Therefore, I think all of us who teach should really start putting our heads together to think of a way to ensure social responsibility in our students. It could take a looooooong time to undo the damage that's been done by dancers who tell their students it's OK to play dress-up at the expense of hard-working professionals and their livelihood.

~Lisa

Originally Posted by yasmindiab

Yikes!

That's awful.

I know some long term dancers and teachers who are not online all that much. While it is certainly possible it was intentional, it is also possible it's ignorance if she's not online all that much.
I'd first try to nicely offer info to bring her up to speed and provide online links to resources and articles. If she denies and doesn't change - then you'll have your answer.

Well, things haven't changed much in the past 30 years. Restaurant owners are always looking at their bottom line. If they can get a product or service for a cheaper price, even if that product or service is not as good, but acceptable, they'll go for it. It's not personal, it's business. (And how many of us will buy the store brand to save a few dollars? I know I do.) And they couldn't care less about any animosity between dancers - I'm sure that never enters their minds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning what this dancer did -- it stinks. Unfortunately, it's also the way of restaurant work.

That being said, Mahira, don't out the dancer, that would be just lowering yourself to her level. Instead, why don't you just say:

"Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am no longer dancing at XYZ Restaurant in Local Town, Illinois."

Us other "locals" will take our business elsewhere.

I'm with DonnaDiva on this one--don't out the dancer online. It won't really do any good and it just lowers you to her level and gives her ammunition to be snarky about you. On the other hand, the type of announcement DonnaDiva suggests (put in a separate thread perhaps....) letting us know of your, erm, job situation change would let those of us who either are in or visit your area know to take our business elsewhere, and for those truly "in the know" in your local area will get the point across just fine without you needing to name her name. Besides, for all the vitriol about the undercutting dancer, the owner who lies and claims he never agreed to pay more is no better. Why does she deserve all to be outted but not him? It's like when a guy cheats on his wife and the woman's friends go after the mistress but don't condem the cheating scum husband who picked her up in the first place--both are guilty.,m::

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Ughhhhhhhh. The worst part is that she teaches...Unfortunately, a lot of this problem comes from either pure ignorance or a misconception about our general "job description" (i.e. students thinking all it takes to "go pro" is to look cute in a costume and show up on time, that there's no skill or business savvy involved). Therefore, I think all of us who teach should really start putting our heads together to think of a way to ensure social responsibility in our students. It could take a looooooong time to undo the damage that's been done by dancers who tell their students it's OK to play dress-up at the expense of hard-working professionals and their livelihood.

I agree. It's a difficult needle to thread, too. I mean, on one hand, you want to encourage enthusiastic and talented students, yet and nobody starts out at the top, and most dancers start with a gig here and there, still holding down a full time job, etc. So, inherently that means they have to start somewhere. They need guidance for how to get experience and build clientele to feel comfortable pricing themselves appropriately without undercutting other dancers. (One worry: "How am I supposed to compete with a dancer who has fifteen years of experience when it's my first gig and we charge the same price? Of course no one's going to hire me--*I* wouldn't hire me if I could have the expert for the same price!") So you have to find ways to help guide their thought processes and experiences to help them find appropriate ways to build the early experience so they feel comfortable charging what the "pros" charge. Hmmm.

I'm not going to "out" her on Bhuz. I agree that it won't do any good. I'm not trying to make enemies, I befriend everyone. And yes I also agree that the owner is just as much to blame. It just makes me believe more and more that restaurant and club owners are slippery business men, we just have to watch out for the banana peels.

While I agree with what's already been said, I feel the need to play devil's advocate for a moment...

When something like this comes up and the location/undercutter remain unnamed it opens the door for speculation and potential for dancers that have absolutely nothing to do with the situation to be regarded with suspicion. That doesn't help anyone and is damaging (speaking from personal experience).

~~Kimahri

My 2 cents...I have dealt with situations like this in the past - most of us have - and have always regretted it when I didn't do something about it.

Should you out her? Yes...to Bhuz and the rest of the online belly dance community....NO. But to your community of dancers...Absolutley. Why? Because if you don't warn other dancers, other professionals, other semi-professionals...the cycle will only continue and it will come back to you yet again. If this "professional" dancer knows she got you and the other dancers "canned" by lowering her rates...what makes you think she won't do it again, at the next restaurant you dance at, and the one after that...and everyone else's...pretty soon, she'll have damn near all the gigs.

Though I agree the owners are to blame as well for dropping their faithful dancers...they are looking for the best dancer at the lowest price. It's normal. However, it doesn't have to happen. I got to the point were I went in with a contract and they signed it. It was short and sweet. It basically covered who was getting paid what, when and how much on raises, additional dancers clauses...short - not overly wordy (it scares them), but enough to make it clear that I was a professional, that I am worth the rate I charge and it a client that wants me to perform a belly gram for 15 minutes is willing to sign a contract, then a client that wants me to dedicate a specific number of days and hours to entertain his/her patrons, needs to give me the same professional courtesy.