Thread: Tales from the "You Have Got to Be F-ing Kiddin Me" Files

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

Yeah, normally I, too, find that corporate clients are among the best--don't balk at the quote. But I had a call with a guy who, after I explained my rates and why they are as they are, tries to haggle me down in price because, well, "We've already got our "main" entertainment for the event and this is what we have left in the budget." ...Ummm...fine, but you still want me to dance a full show on your main stage at a prime time...I don't cost less just because you also have someone else performing. If your business gets a contract to, I don't know, build 300 lighting fixtures, does it charge less than the normal rate for those fixtures because some other company is doing the plumbing????

..c:: ..c:: ..c::

People...

Yeah....or maybe it's kind of like a neurological surgeon getting paid less because the anesthesiologist and the O.R. nurse will also be present at the time of the operation. ..c::

Corporate clients are great. However, one client had already haggled me down to $200 because they were "on a budget." I felt badly enough about lowering my rates, but it was an aquarium and you don't get to dance alongside seals every day! Just as I'd signed on to dance for them, they further haggled me to $150 because at the last minute, they decided to hire a second dancer.

It was too late to do anything, as I'd already committed to the date. And not to mention, it was *hands down* the most fun I've ever had at a gig. Kinda sucked, in hindsight though, that this client tried to get a two-fer out of both of us. We worked HARD that night!

Do you guys have any strict pricing policies for the hiring of multiple dancers to prevent this from happening?

Lisa

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Yeah....or maybe it's kind of like a neurological surgeon getting paid less because the anesthesiologist and the O.R. nurse will also be present at the time of the operation. ..c::

Corporate clients are great. However, one client had already haggled me down to $200 because they were "on a budget." I felt badly enough about lowering my rates, but it was an aquarium and you don't get to dance alongside seals every day! Just as I'd signed on to dance for them, they further haggled me to $150 because at the last minute, they decided to hire a second dancer.

It was too late to do anything, as I'd already committed to the date. And not to mention, it was *hands down* the most fun I've ever had at a gig. Kinda sucked, in hindsight though, that this client tried to get a two-fer out of both of us. We worked HARD that night!

Do you guys have any strict pricing policies for the hiring of multiple dancers to prevent this from happening?

Lisa

I have a strict policy about hiring two dancers. If they can't pay both of us the rate I quote them then they have the option of only hiring one dancer. It's not like we are a wholesale product and they are buying in bulk! ..l;,

Originally Posted by stardancer

I have a strict policy about hiring two dancers. If they can't pay both of us the rate I quote them then they have the option of only hiring one dancer. It's not like we are a wholesale product and they are buying in bulk! ..l;,

So true. In the future, if clients want to buy in bulk, I'll kindly send them to BJ's or Sam's Club. ..l;,

Really, this all falls into the category of "live and learn." You get knocked around a couple of times when you first start performing, and that's where policies come in. When I get a website together and really start getting out there, I plan on implementing non-refundable deposits and the scariest, most legalese performer's contract you can possibly imagine.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Really, this all falls into the category of "live and learn." You get knocked around a couple of times when you first start performing, and that's where policies come in.

Ain't that the truth. But the more experience you get, the less hassels you allow to happen. I think it is useful to shortcut things in advance. Having policies that are upfront does a lot to alleviate all the "negotiation" crap.

Originally Posted by Samira_dncr

Ain't that the truth. But the more experience you get, the less hassels you allow to happen. I think it is useful to shortcut things in advance. Having policies that are upfront does a lot to alleviate all the "negotiation" crap.

Yes. I'm actually working on my contracts and outlining my policies today, so I have them ready to go as soon as I get a website up and running.

I never gave this much thought to the legal or business end of things when I first started performing, since I used to do it solely for fun and a little extra cash flow. (At the appropriate rates, mind you ..l;, ). Now that I'm ready to start gigging regularly and lucratively, I can't put up with the same crap that I used to, and I'd ideally like to instill this moral code in future students so they don't make some of the mistakes I made as a beginner.

Lisa

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Do you guys have any strict pricing policies for the hiring of multiple dancers to prevent this from happening?

Lisa

I don't have strict guidelines for the hiring of multiple dancers, unless I am the one booking them. It sounds like in this case the client hired another dancer as a separate independent contractor.

There's no logical reason why they should expect to get a pricecut on the original agreement that I can think of. It's really tacky that they even asked. You would have been within your rights to say no, and they would have been obliged to either stick to the original terms or to forfeit the deposit you collected.

On my site is states that if you hire a second dnacer through me you'll pay each of us the same amount. Okay, each dancer is paid the same rate. there, that's it!


{{{HUGS}}}}

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I never gave this much thought to the legal or business end of things when I first started performing, since I used to do it solely for fun and a little extra cash flow.

I would say that most of us started out that way. It needs a teacher who really takes her newly performing students by the hand and shows them the right way.
My own teacher at the time didn't perform much herself, so I guess she didn't feel like guiding me?

MEISSOUN

I personally love it when people tell me "it will be great exposure"

my response is to remind them that "people die of exposure"

Lol Samira ..l;,
Can I use that quote?

Originally Posted by Khalida

Lol Samira ..l;,
Can I use that quote?

Oooh, me too! That's hilarious! ..l;,

Originally Posted by samiramirage

I personally love it when people tell me "it will be great exposure"

my response is to remind them that "people die of exposure"

And too much exposure is generally considered indecent.

Feel free to use that one Laura and Khalida! I got it from a wonderful and saucy dance teacher I studied from as a child. She used to be a vaudeville performer and had a quick answer for everything.

Thats funny Shira!

Originally Posted by aamel_MirahAmmal

Yeah, normally I, too, find that corporate clients are among the best--don't balk at the quote. But I had a call with a guy who, after I explained my rates and why they are as they are, tries to haggle me down in price because, well, "We've already got our "main" entertainment for the event and this is what we have left in the budget." ...Ummm...fine, but you still want me to dance a full show on your main stage at a prime time...I don't cost less just because you also have someone else performing. If your business gets a contract to, I don't know, build 300 lighting fixtures, does it charge less than the normal rate for those fixtures because some other company is doing the plumbing????

..c:: ..c:: ..c::

People...

,r:; Well, of course the person did find someone to give him the lighting fixtures for less because he already had the plumbing coming. I think he did have to come up in price somewhat (no one was willing to go as low as he wanted) but he still got a low rate.... Then he even called me back to see if I'd match that person's bargain rate because he'd still hire me instead if I would. No dice--I know who it was and fine--if she's willing to price herself down, let 'er have it. LOL--somethings just aren't worth it.

Wow, judging by the five pages of responses here, it is STILL all too common to be asked to "dance for free because our private and exclusive club cannot afford to pay for entertainment at our Holiday dinner dance next month, we already have paid for a band. We would be happy to give you and your duet partner a free dinner for a 30 minute performance." This was the "gig offer"my duet partner got after dancing for this group's event for seniors on Thanksgiving for 30 minuts for free, in red/silver beaded bedlah, no less! (One of the many reasons I limit how many free performances I do for charity).
Our response was to smile and decline (poliltely)and give them our business card and tell them we'd be happy to dance at an event in the future when they could budget for our performance fees.

What amazes me is that my story is from over 20 years ago, and despite all the "bellydance has gone mainstream" effect over the years, there is a certain percentage of the general public who expect bellydancers to dance for free even when handed a card or brochure by the performer. And in a sense, I can understand that, after all when's the last time you saw a brain surgeon, accountant or plumber performing THEIR profession for free at a festival, hafla or non-profit concert fund raiser.........

And sometimes, the general public has a hard time making the distinction between "talented professional dancer in gorgeous costume" and
"talented hobbyist dancer in gorgeous costume" because not only are there plenty of beaded costumes available on line reasonably, there are lots of "hobbyists" that are good dancers. And, unlike brain surgeons, accountants and plumbers, belly dancers do NOT really have associations or unions to back them up - unless they've negotiated for a gig through a talent agent and that's not the norm.

Whew, I've opened enough cans o'worms for a Monday morning. It just makes me mad and sad on so many levels ,m:: ..cr.: ,m::

However, I do heartily applaud :zillgallop: every dancer, hobbyist or pro who sticks to their guns when asked to dance for "free" or for "dinner" just because the group "can't spend any money for entertainment." That's bunk, even assisted living facilities have funds for entertainment, so do schools, libraries, etc.

Okay, flame me for my soap box but this just stunned me this a.m....

:soapbox:

i've had an instance recently where i was reffered for a gig and promised that said client was willing to pay 250-300 for my time. especially since i would be driving very far. so i call this person up and the client proceeds to low ball me. "so and so" did it for 150 last year. i know very well that they did not and it's a 30min show, about an hour drive from where i live. i stand firm 300, also stating that i should be charging higher but this is for an institution whose work i believe in. well, what if i offer you 200. then you wont see me. what do you mean i wont see you? you wont see me, as in i wont be there. i am not leaving my house for less than 300. said client then proceeds to interrogate me as to my dance background, ethnicity, etc. so at this point i am livid!
but, grudgingly, agrees to my price.
the more i thought about it the angrier i became, i was really tempted to back out of it and find someone else to take the gig. until, my mom became available to go with me.
i'm not foreign enough? how's a thick accent greek mother for ya!
mom handled everything, making sure no one touched my stuff, speaking to the client in question, who balked lol and insisting in payment before i went on stage. the client implied that it was improper/rude, but my mom didn't budge.
gotta love my moms!

Yes - HOW *RUDE* of you to expect payment. I cannot believe that you were soooo presumptuous.

I just got another "based of turn-out" payment suggestions.

There's a $5 entrance fee to the event and they'll give me 10% of whatever they make. Woohoo....I can eat today.

Originally Posted by Susanna

I just got another "based of turn-out" payment suggestions.

There's a $5 entrance fee to the event and they'll give me 10% of whatever they make. Woohoo....I can eat today.

And I suppose you're to trust them to do the math on the turnout correctly at the end of the night?
Riiiiiiiight.....

Originally Posted by Susanna

There's a $5 entrance fee to the event and they'll give me 10% of whatever they make. Woohoo....I can eat today.

Wow - 10% of a $5 cover.
How big is the venue? Do they really expect a lot of people to attend?
If a hundred guests pay at the door, you're gonna get a whopping 50 bucks!

you have to watch out for these events too - often they have "special" guest lists who don't pay to get in, so you're not getting their 10% at all.

Originally Posted by caasious

you have to watch out for these events too - often they have "special" guest lists who don't pay to get in, so you're not getting their 10% at all.

Yeah, any friend or friend of a friend, or family member will get to go in with no cover. This is a crappy deal, more complicated than it needs to be, too!

No, this is ridiculous...I answered them something along the lines of sorry, too busy, cant take this kind of deal, will give discount. Named amount of discount, they said sorry, not in budget...and here's the kicker...they asked me whether I know of someone who will do it for 10% of door fee. I said no, sorry, rates, fees are standard for professional dancers and we don't do that kind of thing..after which they ask...well do you know of a non-professional dancer who can do it for our fee...

Originally Posted by Susanna

No, this is ridiculous...I answered them something along the lines of sorry, too busy, cant take this kind of deal, will give discount. Named amount of discount, they said sorry, not in budget...and here's the kicker...they asked me whether I know of someone who will do it for 10% of door fee. I said no, sorry, rates, fees are standard for professional dancers and we don't do that kind of thing..after which they ask...well do you know of a non-professional dancer who can do it for our fee...

God I hate this - basically these people who are too cheap to pay you the going rate want you to do their legwork for them in finding a dancer to undercut you.

Yeah, how 'bout find your own cheap a$$ dancer?

Originally Posted by Susanna

No, this is ridiculous...I answered them something along the lines of sorry, too busy, cant take this kind of deal, will give discount. Named amount of discount, they said sorry, not in budget...and here's the kicker...they asked me whether I know of someone who will do it for 10% of door fee. I said no, sorry, rates, fees are standard for professional dancers and we don't do that kind of thing..after which they ask...well do you know of a non-professional dancer who can do it for our fee...

That is indeed ridiculous! I would have been tempted to ask her, "I can't believe you asked that! Don't you care about the quality of your event?" or, "Why on earth would you want someone who lacks performing skills to dance at your event?"

I just turned down the chance to have my troupe dance for free at the county fair. I asked about budget and was told that there was no pay, but 40,000 people would see us, and it would be great publicity. (Hmm, if they took $1 from each of those 40,000 people, that would be a delightful fee! ..l;, )

I'm sure they'll get someone to dance, though...

Latifa

Originally Posted by *Shira*

That is indeed ridiculous! I would have been tempted to ask her, "I can't believe you asked that! Don't you care about the quality of your event?" or, "Why on earth would you want someone who lacks performing skills to dance at your event?"

It took all my will power not to be nasty because on top of all that (yes there's more)...they wanted me to help them promote (" you can even tell your friends to come ")