Capitalist Bellydancers, Unite! (A Spinoff Thread)

[SatinWorship19]

This is a spinoff from my recent contribution to the "WTF Files" thread.

Recently, I've been playing with the idea of significantly raising my rates, probably by $50-100 above the going rate. This is for many reasons.

For one, I'm interested in breaking into the high-end market. Higher prices, psychologically, compute as prestige, high quality, etc. to the consumer. Also, I spend thousands of dollars on workshops and costuming to set myself at a high standard of "quality." Back when I was taking workshops only sporadically and buying lower end costumes, my old rate seemed like a fair compensation. Now that I'm spending more, I feel I should be getting a rate that reflects my input of time and money. Furthermore, as I discussed in greater length, adding some "fluff" to my bids could definitely help act as a buffer against haggling clients: even if I knocked $100 off my final rate, I'd still be within the going rate, and clients would still feel like they got away with something.

After being turned down for a few gigs recently because clients got bids for $100 less than what I charged, I've realized it's time for me to do something. I really think if we all start raising our prices, significantly but not necessarily exorbitantly, it would send a stronger message to our clients that there's a pretty big discrepancy between a dancer who will perform for $350 and one who will do the job for $30 and a song. I could be wrong, but that's my hypothesis.

Not to mention, I'm sick of people bartering for the sake of bartering. If they're gonna persist to barter, I'll just raise my rates. Let them think they're getting away with something.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Anybody tried this? How did it work for you?

Lisa

[tamrahennatx]

I raised my rates last year. I did go a while without gigs, but honestly, I don't think the rate increase was the main reason. I went for a long time with few if any inquiries.

Now, however, it's picking up, and aside from people who think I should dance for free at their country club shindigs, I haven't had a problem getting the rates I'm asking.

[tamrahennatx]

BTW, here's a link to my bookings page:

Hire a Belly Dancer! Tamra Henna - Booking Information

I borrowed the verbiage heavily from Zari's site, who in turn borrowed from Tahira, I believe. I'm already thinking of doing a little tweaking to the page, adding in a wedding category, for instance.

[rose_sahar]

AMEN! I am just starting out, but I have seen the troubles my mentors have had getting fair compensation for gigs. Why on earth do peaple think dancers should perform for free???? They would never ask a band to perform for free. A rate raise might be jsut the thing.

[kamilia]

Wow! What a multi-layered question. I hope I can address it succinctly.

A lot of people who charge less are only doing so because they aren't accurately tracking the prices that go into the dance, or just don't feel they can charge more. Discussions with local dancers addressing such problems can help, which will in turn, make it even a little bit easier for customers to get the idea. As mentioned all over bhuz before, many dancers will start to question why they're doing all this work for so much less money while others are rolling in dough (money, I mean, not bread in its beginnings).

Remember that nothing will change unless people change things. I know it sounds obvious, but you might need to say that to the community for encouragement. It's horribly self-evident, so you don't have to quote me ..g.:

If you want some fab negotiation tips from a seasoned negotiator, let me know and I will send them to you. It's good to send concrete advice to your community.

Customers will always do whatever the hell they want to do based on budget, personal preferences, etc. However, a good goal is to get them to (ostensibly) respect you and your pricing policies (which should be firm, btw ).

You can get pointers for explaining your prices in a professional manner in many ways: for example, try calling a premier law firm in town and asking them why their initial consultation costs $800 or whatever they charge. Ask why you can find other lawyers whose consultations are much less. I know it sounds crazy, but you can learn a lot from other people who sell their services for a price and know how to deal with customers looking for a bargain.

In the meantime, stick up for yourself and charge as you see fit. If you think it's not worth it for you to make your CD and don your costume for less than $350, power to you! Anything is possible, the sky is the limit, and don't give yourself away at a discount! Congratulations for wanting to make money and good luck

[bintbeled]

I used to dance at a LOT of parties (and now a couple of Bhuzzers do this for me, tee hee!). When I started getting tired of the late nights and driving around, I jacked up my rates, thinking it would discourage people. At that time I was charging at least $50-$75 more than other pro dancer in the area in the DC area. I also stopped trying to persuade people to hire me during phone calls. When callers would react in shock at my prices, and point out that other dancers would dance for far less, I would say, "Yes, my prices are high. I have excellent credentials and my shows are worth every penny. But if price is your only consideration, I think you should hire the other dancer." Usually they would call back and book me because they "wanted to hire the best." Did I say I was the best? No.

In a way, this backfired, since I got more shows. But it's amazing how that higher salary makes it worthwhile. ..l;,

[Suzana]

Latifa, I love this story!

It's a classic example of "Be careful what you ask for -- you may get it!" But in the very best way. ..g.:

[annwyn]

I am glad you brought this up. I have recently raised my rates which has actually gotten my down emotionaly because this little tramp with home made costumes is dancing at a bar for maybe $50 and getting gigs left and right, where i am chargnig $175 and getting turned down, or no inquires at all. It may not be the $ it may be the fact that I dont like to shake my girly bits at horney 20year olds, but I have been thinking that it is the price, I mean why pay for me when they can get close to a strip show for free. ARGGGG Oh well maybe buisness will pick up

[Zumarrad]

If they want good, they will pay for good. I did a gig with my former teacher (who was bloody good - good in the sense of excellent dancer, attractive, beautiful costume, impeccable presentation) and the people who had booked us referred to another dance group they had heard of who were cheaper. My teacher said that they had seen what she could do, and by all means they should try the other group if they wished. No dissing or comparison, just "by all means".

She got a lot of repeat work.

[SatinWorship19]

When callers would react in shock at my prices, and point out that other dancers would dance for far less, I would say, "Yes, my prices are high. I have excellent credentials and my shows are worth every penny. But if price is your only consideration, I think you should hire the other dancer." Usually they would call back and book me because they "wanted to hire the best." Did I say I was the best? No.

Great story, bintbeled!

It really goes to show how planting the seed in a client's head can go a looooooong way. Just set the stage that you're in a class of your own, and the client's imagination will go to town. You don't even have to go out of your way to toot your own horn.

It's just like how a costume with wonky hand appliques on the boobs is "whimsical" if it has a Sahar tag, but "WTF?" if it's a Turkish Airport Special. By that, I'm not insinuating that any one of us is a wonky booby-hands costume.....w.: ....it's just all about how you brand yourself.

Lisa

[SatinWorship19]

I am glad you brought this up. I have recently raised my rates which has actually gotten my down emotionaly because this little tramp with home made costumes is dancing at a bar for maybe $50 and getting gigs left and right, where i am chargnig $175 and getting turned down, or no inquires at all. It may not be the $ it may be the fact that I dont like to shake my girly bits at horney 20year olds, but I have been thinking that it is the price, I mean why pay for me when they can get close to a strip show for free. ARGGGG Oh well maybe buisness will pick up

Ohhhhh girl, I feel your pain. There is a local dancer who advertises her dirt-cheap rates right on her website, has been known to stalk other dancers, was a former stripper (and allegedly bellydances like one), and wears self-made Goodwill Broomstick Nippletassel outfits....yet she seems to have performed everywhere, and she teaches like 12 classes a week.

I, on the other hand, have been dancing for 5 years, spend thousands of dollars on workshops, own several high-end costumes, win tons of accolades for my stage presence, and am quite Hollywood-sorta attractive, to boot ....no dice, so far.

Sometimes, I catch myself thinking that there's no justice in my local BD scene, when Suzy Nippletassels is blowing up the scene and I'm performing once every other month or so. It really hurts, when you give everything only to get nothing in return (or for clients to turn you down for the Bargain Basement Bellydancers). But I'm just thinking of all the positive things I can do to tip the scales in my favor. Like getting a slick website and some gorgeous promo pics, to blow the undercutters and their MySpace pages out of the water. And maybe getting a fitness certification so I can be more qualifed to teach. I'm definitely learning a lot as I shape up my marketing M.O. and get ready to kick some ass.

You don't want to shake the girly bits (Did I just say that? Eeeewwwww!!!!) at some nasty bar. I had to turn down the past 4 gigs I was offered because they either were dirt cheap, or the client expected me to come out, dance for 5 minutes, and feed grapes to the birthday boy for like 15 minutes more. Even my agent has stopped calling me after I told him I can't do parties all the way across the state for $150 below my going rate and without travel compensation. So gigs have screeched to a halt. I KNOW there's no shortage of undercutters and American Idol wannabes in my area who will scramble to pick up my sloppy seconds that I didn't take....but at this point, it's almost a relief. I'm so *over* gigs that are spiritually and financially ungratifying. At this point, quality matters, not quantity.

Chin up, soldier!

Lisa

[annwyn]

Thanks lisa you really cheered my up. I am glad I am not the only going through this. I feel as if this stale period is never going to end. YES THOUSANDS of $ for me too . a workshop or class for me means buying a ticket to either main land $150 and then a hotel at about $100 a night plus workshops fees or flying to the states $900 min staying with my mother or in law plus workshop fees. I KNOW FOR A FACT she hasnt taken a class in 2 years and she is only 19 but is SUCH a good dancer bla bla bla...........so what do we do then? how do we overcome these obsticals? im at a loss

[Bellydancefanatic]

I used to dance at a LOT of parties (and now a couple of Bhuzzers do this for me, tee hee!). When I started getting tired of the late nights and driving around, I jacked up my rates, thinking it would discourage people. At that time I was charging at least $50-$75 more than other pro dancer in the area in the DC area. I also stopped trying to persuade people to hire me during phone calls. When callers would react in shock at my prices, and point out that other dancers would dance for far less, I would say, "Yes, my prices are high. I have excellent credentials and my shows are worth every penny. But if price is your only consideration, I think you should hire the other dancer." Usually they would call back and book me because they "wanted to hire the best." Did I say I was the best? No.

In a way, this backfired, since I got more shows. But it's amazing how that higher salary makes it worthwhile. ..l;,

Absolutely love your response to that situation! Classic...and I'm going to remember it in the future too!

BTW, I may go to that Raqia Hassan workshop. You booked early! Is it fully booked already, by chance? I can ask Faten this Sunday too. I totally forgot to say hi to her for you. If I say "Latifa said hello!", will she know who I'm talking about (I would hope so, anyway!)?

[sabrinabellydancer]

Ohhhhh girl, I feel your pain. There is a local dancer who advertises her dirt-cheap rates right on her website, has been known to stalk other dancers, was a former stripper (and allegedly bellydances like one), and wears self-made Goodwill Broomstick Nippletassel outfits....yet she seems to have performed everywhere, and she teaches like 12 classes a week.

its amazing how that girl works in everyone's town!

Wrinkleskirt Nippletassels will undecut and get lots of small sleazy shows where the audience just wants someone to hoot and holler at. i don't personally care about these types of shows. she can have them.

i get annoyed when these girls drive down the rates for teaching classes, restaurant/club gigs and regular party gigs.
i just don't understand why they don't charge the same as everyone else. why would they take less pay than they could get at the going rate? guess i'll never understand why they sell themselves short.

back ot: i think we should all raise our rates periodically. other entertainers do. why should we charge the same as we did 10 years ago for a gig, when the wedding bands have certainly raised their rates?

[jewelbellydance]

When callers would react in shock at my prices, and point out that other dancers would dance for far less, I would say, "Yes, my prices are high. I have excellent credentials and my shows are worth every penny. But if price is your only consideration, I think you should hire the other dancer." ..l;,

I am going to print that and put it on my noticeboard, alongside my list of prices. Armed with these two things, no-one will ever negotiate my prices down again!!! It's funny how printing up a schedule of prices has made me stick to them more...it makes me feel better to know that I'm following company policy...g.:

[SatinWorship19]

its amazing how that girl works in everyone's town!

Wrinkleskirt Nippletassels will undecut and get lots of small sleazy shows where the audience just wants someone to hoot and holler at. i don't personally care about these types of shows. she can have them.

i get annoyed when these girls drive down the rates for teaching classes, restaurant/club gigs and regular party gigs.

You hit the nail on the head. Wrinkleskirt Nippletassels doesn't pose a threat to me and my particular niche - any client looking for a quality show is intelligent enough to know the difference between an untrained self-proclaimed rockstar in a $25 getup vs. an educated, savvy, tasteful and slick professional with the charm and presence to entertain a crowd.

However, I am getting worried because a few clients, as of now, have tried to talk me down to $150 because that's what this dancer asks for....and she's now started teaching in my general area. (Nobody will want to study with me or any of the qualified teachers around here for our standard rate if they can learn "authentic" bellydance for $6 or whatever she charges).

Maybe I'm projecting too far into the future, but I find it alarming that the people who break the rules and butcher the payscale have greater power to set the paradigm than those of us who work hard to raise the bar for everyone.

As for the "why" of it all, Ms. Tassels knows she can only dance for cheap because she doesn't have the integrity or the talent to make it otherwise. I'm just sick of the undercutters and their psychiatric disturbances affecting my ability to get good, honest work.

End rant.

Lisa

[SatinWorship19]

Thanks lisa you really cheered my up. I am glad I am not the only going through this. I feel as if this stale period is never going to end. YES THOUSANDS of $ for me too . a workshop or class for me means buying a ticket to either main land $150 and then a hotel at about $100 a night plus workshops fees or flying to the states $900 min staying with my mother or in law plus workshop fees. I KNOW FOR A FACT she hasnt taken a class in 2 years and she is only 19 but is SUCH a good dancer bla bla bla...........so what do we do then? how do we overcome these obsticals? im at a loss

Yeah, not a whole lot of advanced classes or workshops here, so I usually have to travel into the nearest major city by train, or drive, and then stay there overnight. And I try to study with as many instructors as possible, and only the top names. Huge chunk of my paycheck (from my day job, mind you) right there. Gladly spent.

As for a solution, I think the only way to beat the undercutters is to keep improving our technique, to keep fighting for good wages, and keep raising the bar. And find a polite way to tell clients that there is a difference between Bargain Basement Barbie and Exquisite, Extraordinary Annwyn . Our efforts will benefit us and makes the Nipple Tasslers look like a bunch of idiots....as if they need any help in that regard ..l;, .

If that doesn't work, we can chase after the Broomstick Squad with an iron and straighten those unsightly wrinkles from their skirts.

Lisa

[SatinWorship19]

I am going to print that and put it on my noticeboard, alongside my list of prices. Armed with these two things, no-one will ever negotiate my prices down again!!! It's funny how printing up a schedule of prices has made me stick to them more...it makes me feel better to know that I'm following company policy...g.:

That's true.

We should all compile a collective list of responses to the tough questions, practice them in front of a mirror to master the conviction, and spout 'em like they're going out of style.

Repeat after me: "You get what you pay for...."

Lisa

[deelight]

Ya know, speaking of strippers, I did a search on "party stripper contract" or something like that the other day because I was interested in comparing various types of performer contracts. And I was totally shocked to discover that there are several web sites along the lines of "How To Throw A Bachelor Party", etc, that recommend haggling on price with strippers. They say things like "Never take their asking price at face value" and "Remember that you can almost always get them to go lower than their listed price" - as if taking off their clothes for you wasn't lowering enough!!!! At least one site thought to say something like "Ask around to get several price quotes for a good deal. But remember you may not necessarily want the cheapest one - choose the performer who sounds the most professional."

Ya know it just made me feel bad for the strippers. And I realize that it's not necessarily the consumer's fault when they try to negotiate us down - there's some bad information out there encouraging the practice.

[kamilia]

Ya know, speaking of strippers, I did a search on "party stripper contract" or something like that the other day because I was interested in comparing various types of performer contracts. And I was totally shocked to discover that there are several web sites along the lines of "How To Throw A Bachelor Party", etc, that recommend haggling on price with strippers. They say things like "Never take their asking price at face value" and "Remember that you can almost always get them to go lower than their listed price" - as if taking off their clothes for you wasn't lowering enough!!!! At least one site thought to say something like "Ask around to get several price quotes for a good deal. But remember you may not necessarily want the cheapest one - choose the performer who sounds the most professional."

Ya know it just made me feel bad for the strippers. And I realize that it's not necessarily the consumer's fault when they try to negotiate us down - there's some bad information out there encouraging the practice.

Oh, geeze. Thanks so much for posting this. It just really goes to show how low dancers are on the totem pole EVERYWHERE.

The last example you gave was a little more heartwarming, but me oh my.

[SatinWorship19]

Oh, geeze. Thanks so much for posting this. It just really goes to show how low dancers are on the totem pole EVERYWHERE.

The last example you gave was a little more heartwarming, but me oh my.

It really is horrifying. I wonder if there are similar articles floating around the Internet about how to hire a BDer:

"Surf through a couple of websites. If you spot a dancer wearing an Ebay-caliber tribal bra, a hip belt, and a gypsy skirt that looks like it could have come from Goodwill, call her first: she'll cut you the deal of a lifetime. If you're lucky enough, she just might even pay you to let her dance around a little bit in your living room!"

"Everybody knows, a dancer isn't legit unless she's "ethnic." To ensure authenticity, listen for an Indian accent. If she sounds like the Quik-E-Mart owner from The Simpsons, she's a pro!"

"Don't take 'no' for an answer: When she says 'The local going rate is $250,' she really means 'Come on, keep haggling! This is fun!'"

"Don't let her claims of higher education fool you: Bellydancers have nothing better to do than ride unicorns and search for pots of gold."

"Bellydance is nothing but an evil pyramid scheme in which middle-aged housewives who are too fat to be strippers seek revenge against society in the form of hefty price tags for their wiggle-shows. The reality of the situation is that bellydancers inhabit a secret society in which shawarma and unicorn droppings are their currency. They have no need for our earthly money, so we have no reason to pay them!"

I could go on forever....

Lisa