Thread: Standing up for my rights

Hi everyone,

I have what has grown into a really big issue and a long story but I wanted to seek some advice before I rush headlong into negotiations.

I began dancing at this restaurant after my latest dance teacher told me that he thought I was ready to take my dance to the next level. He informed me of the rate of pay I would receive as a restaurant dancer, and told me that the base pay would increase with my experience. I trusted this was how all dancers started out until I recently discovered that the rate I was receiving was less than the going rate for dancers in my area. I also discovered that the new dancer he included in the schedule was getting even less than I was, Quote “$/show (increasing $5 every10 shows to a final cap (my current wage). He told us that he was our agent and after a couple months of taking my money and me not getting anything in return for it (no extra bookings etc) I realized that he was making a nice profit for doing absolutely nothing in my behalf. To make it worse, when I brought up the issue, he admitted that he had lied to me, and informed me that he was not really my agent per say, but that he was receiving the missing portion of each of my shows. He then stated that he provided me with the opportunity to dance in a restaurant and the rest which I have included below. CONTINUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Continued..... “Why is my rate different than elsewhere?

(name withheld) replied: “It's how “the restaurant owner” compensates me for a serious imbalance - I create an atmosphere and media promo that brings in a crowd which then tips the best female dancers twice as much as I get tipped myself - simple demographics, men make the $. We could get paid $ each and split tips but that's likely not to your benefit”

I told him that the people he brings to the restaurant usually tip him and not me, and regardless of tips, the base rate is the minimum that dancers in the area charge. As I am now a dancer in the area I deserve to receive the fee as undercutting is not acceptable, and my time is just as valuable as his. He told me that if I have a problem with my wage than I should talk to the restaurant owner since he is the one who signs the cheques. Initially, one of the ways I confirmed I was being seriously underpaid was when the restaurant owner hired me without (name withheld) and paid me the going rate. To add to that (name witheld) has also started to collect on shows not involving himself at all (since this owner has 3 restaurants) and then taking the extra from my paycheque and adding it to his. So the real issue is with my teacher, since he is the one who hands me the cheques and tells the owner how much I am owed. However, since I am tired of fighting for my rights with (name withheld), and he told me to talk to the owner about the situation, I have decided to negotiate the situation with the owner and request the proper fee. If that is not agreed to, then my next step is to let go of the gigs at this place totally, since as of late, they have caused me more stress than anything.

So after all that info (I hope I made it legible), I am asking for feedback/ Advice for how any of you would deal with a situation like this. Or any tips for how I can go about talking to the owner, since I currently have a good relationship with him. Thanks! Any advice is much appreciated

It sounds to me like the owner is unaware of this neat little arrangement between your teacher and you. I would absolutely talk to the owner and soon. Call me paranoid, but there's no telling what this guy is saying to the owner about you or any of his other students. If he's unscrupulous enough to lie to you and ::in effect:: steal from his students, I wouldn't put it past him. Be prepared to possible go with little or no work for a short time but I can't imagine that you'd never work again if you did this. Let the owner know that you understand that this guy has a long standing relationship with the restaurant (if applicable) and that you also appreciate the gig he gave you directly. Follow that up by saying that you have been preparing to branch out on your own and the time has come. Tell him you would be delighted to continue to work with him in the future. All of this is assuming that your teacher isn't in complete control of the schedule, in which case this might be a little more delicate.

I do not feel that the gorey details of what has transpired with you and teacher need to be brought into the conversation unless absolutely necessary. You could come off seeming greedy and childish. If, let's say, the owner says something that clues you in to the fact that he senses tension or a rift with you and teacher, then I believe it would be OK to tell the truth. Of course, you'd want to be diplomatic and avoid the word lie / lied / liar in favor of 'less than honest', etc etc.

This is what I personally would do though others might have different approaches. This advice is from personal experience. I can tell you that after a short time, I was dancing more than my former teacher and her entire troupe combined per month. Owners began taking away nights from her/them to give to me. Is this the only gig in town?

Well this is a bit shafty, but could you renegotiate with the owner, offering more than what you are getting paid but less that the total amount with your teacher skimming off the top. Making sure that he paid you directly....The owner may take because he i getting a deal and you then get paid more, putting you in control and then you could start renegotiating for the other dancers, the would bring the rate down a bit but would completely push the teacher out, and you would still be getting paid more....then you have the upper hand....just a thought....be be prepared for it to back fire and you have to go find other work....

Sounds like a toxic situation that, in all honesty, might never improve, or could cause others to act with undue hostility toward you. Who needs the negativity?

If I were you, I would gracefully bow out, cut my losses, and seek other work. Stick around if you need the extra cash, or love performing there, but be prepared to stick up for yourself. And don't back down.

Too many horror stories about restaurant drama. This is why I'm perfectly content to strictly do private events.

Good luck,

Lisa

Whatever contract/arrangement you land after severing ties with this teacher (and that's my advice. Anyone who would deliberately lie and take advantage of your newbie-ness is not worthy of your company, imo) make sure there is no middle man or lady to pay. All contracts should be between you and the person writing the checks. Good luck!

Good luck!

Thank you all for the advice, I feel more confident about the whole situation now. It is nice to get feedback from other dancers before rushing into things.

hmm, i wouldnt offer to work for less, so i dont agree with annwyn,

i'd tell the owner what whisper and the others suggested, that you have decided to start working on your own, no longer through your teacher (maybe with a vague hint about unreconciable differences, maybe not, depends how well you knwo the owner and what your teachers relationship with him is), and say that you'd be happy to keep taking on work form him at X rate (like the one he paid you when you worked directly through him) but that you udnerstand if he cant hire you directly, but in that case you will not be dancing there anymore and you wont work via your teacher no more.

there is no need to undercut yourself really, especially not if the going rate is what he has been paying your teacher for you

one other thing though, i dont know how large your teachers cut is, but if he organises the shedule etc, and does act as an agent, some kind of agents fee would be normal in my book? however there needs to be absolute transparency about these kind of things. and reading your story there seems to be more going on than just the problem of hm getting some of the money, it's also the strange way he seems to go about that/justifies it, etc

Couldn't you just ask the restaurant owner to pay you directly every week?

I don't understand why instructors also want to act as booking agents for their students. IMO, if you feel your students are ready to be working as professional dancers, then one crucial part of their training should be negotiating and taking care of their own pay.

I've heard of a couple of different instructors in my state who book their students in restaurants and then skim off the top. I personally find that to be extremely distasteful, since usually it sounds as if the dancers are being sorely taken advantage of by someone who is already being paid by them for lessons, etc.

If you run a booking agency and the fees are spelled out clearly and everyone knows what's what that's one thing, but to me this generally seems like a deceptive and unfair practice.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I don't understand why instructors also want to act as booking agents for their students. IMO, if you feel your students are ready to be working as professional dancers, then one crucial part of their training should be negotiating and taking care of their own pay.

I've heard of a couple of different instructors in my state who book their students in restaurants and then skim off the top. I personally find that to be extremely distasteful, since usually it sounds as if the dancers are being sorely taken advantage of by someone who is already being paid by them for lessons, etc.

If you run a booking agency and the fees are spelled out clearly and everyone knows what's what that's one thing, but to me this generally seems like a deceptive and unfair practice.

I agree - I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole. I think it's one thing to include and pay students (who are ready to go pro, of course) if you've been booked yourself for a multi-dancer or group gig, or to refer them as a sub. That's how a lot of us earned our training wheels, so to speak.

But to book out your students on a regular basis at restaurants, and take a fee off the top? It just seems like a conflict of interest to me. I think it infringes on the students right to seek out a new instructor, for example - maybe they've learned all they can from their current instructor, but they don't want to leave because they'll lose their restaurant gig. Also, it seems like the teacher would be motivated to use their classes as a way to build a stable of performers for their own profit, which is is kind of an icky idea for me.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I agree - I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole. I think it's one thing to include and pay students (who are ready to go pro, of course) if you've been booked yourself for a multi-dancer or group gig, or to refer them as a sub. That's how a lot of us earned our training wheels, so to speak.

But to book out your students on a regular basis at restaurants, and take a fee off the top? It just seems like a conflict of interest to me. I think it infringes on the students right to seek out a new instructor, for example - maybe they've learned all they can from their current instructor, but they don't want to leave because they'll lose their restaurant gig. Also, it seems like the teacher would be motivated to use their classes as a way to build a stable of performers for their own profit, which is is kind of an icky idea for me.

Yes! Exactly. It's a way for the instructor to keep hold of the reins with her students, and to keep her fingers in all the pies she possibly can - with the restaurant owners, whether or not she performs herself, with her student base, and with the dance community at large. It's also what generally leads to poorer quality of dancing, because she feels the need to keep all the gigs staffed with her own dancers, regardless of whether they are professional level or not.

I've also noticed that some of these instructors use their students as cash cows - selling them everything from lessons and workshops, to music, to zills and costumes, as well as booking them into gigs and taking a fee. It's like they want to see how much money they can milk out of each person before she is used up and moves on. I personally would not handle my business that way, but there are those who do it, and as long as people allow it, it will continue to go on.

when i booked students (well, rather co-teachers) at the restaurant i danced in too, they got paid exactly the same as i did when dancing there. (actually, they got 5E more, because the restaurant owner taught they'd have to give me 10E, even though we told them that wasnt true)..

but when i book students/other dancers for other gigs, i do keep a small fee, for my telephone, internet, time, publicity, taking care of the practicial details. very much LIKE an entertainment agency. this is all very out in the open, and everyone knows this. unless i just pass them on the details and they can handle the booking themselves, i do that to, depends who it is etc, but when i have done all the leg work (set up all the details, they just have to show up and dance...), i think it's normal practice. no one complained so far.

there are servral people on bhuz who run an agency (book dancers and keep a fee), maybe they would like to chime in. i hope they do.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

there are servral people on bhuz who run an agency (book dancers and keep a fee), maybe they would like to chime in. i hope they do.

I am a part of an agency that books entertainment, so I understand that concept, and it's a normal and natural part of doing business that way. I'm speaking specifically of instructors who use restaurant work to make money off of their students by skimming off the top. Restaurant pay is already so abysmal, it seems like a crime to take anything from the dancer who actually does the gig, unless it's really minimal - say $5 per dancer. HOWEVER, I feel that the restaurant owner actually should bear the responsibility for paying the scheduler an adquate fee for her time, not the other dancers booked in. Once again, it's paying to perform in a certain venue, and I just don't like it.

In a situation where you're acting as an agent and handling the details of a private party for a dancer who's only responsibility is to show up and dance, I feel that a fee is reasonable, though in my mind it should be built into the front end, and not taken off the back end (meaning the client is charged a surcharge over the local going rate, and the dancer receives the full amount -or almost - that she would have made if she had booked the gig herself).

Maybe others disagree with that, but I think that if a client hires an agency to do their legwork in finding a dancer, then they should be okay with paying that agency a fee for their services on top of the fee they pay the dancer for her services.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

but when i book students/other dancers for other gigs, i do keep a small fee, for my telephone, internet, time, publicity, taking care of the practicial details. very much LIKE an entertainment agency.

I don't have a problem with that at all; if fact, I think you should if you're handling all the details, whether you are booking students or just colleagues. My feelings of discomfort emerge when a teacher is booking students on a very regular basis, to where the students are more her employees than her customers. There's a puppy mill-like quality to it that just squicks me out a bit.

There may well be a way to do it ethically, I just wouldn't ever be comfortable with the dual role on such a regular basis. To be honest, it's even been weird for me when students have hired me for a gig, so maybe I'm just overly sensitive when it comes to my boundaries.

i have that problem (the dual role), with my advanced students who start teaching at my school, but are usually also still my students. (they dont pay for their classes anymore, in fact, they get paid for teaching)... but yeah, i'm still struggling with how to deal with all that.

but is the alternative to really say 'everyone always on their own'? that if people want to go pro they should teach and dance on their own? i think their is room for a set up where people start subbing for you/start working for you, and perform and teach through their teacher (as well as maybe on their own next to that). i dont think i should just tell them about the going rate and say 'well, you're on your own now'...?

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

i have that problem (the dual role), with my advanced students who start teaching at my school, but are usually also still my students. (they dont pay for their classes anymore, in fact, they get paid for teaching)... but yeah, i'm still struggling with how to deal with all that.

but is the alternative to really say 'everyone always on their own'? that if people want to go pro they should teach and dance on their own? i think their is room for a set up where people start subbing for you/start working for you, and perform and teach through their teacher (as well as maybe on their own next to that). i dont think i should just tell them about the going rate and say 'well, you're on your own now'...?

I think there should be a mentoring process as the student starts out on a professional path, but that doesn't need to involve a student paying her teacher for all of her gigs (maybe a fee for private parties booked in through the teacher's agency, but not for restaurants, where the instructor has a stranglehold on the gigs and the student is beholden to her for any professional work). There should be a point at which a student is encouraged to take responsibility for her own gigs, otherwise, she doesn't really grow into a full-fledged professional dancer who can negotiate favorably for herself.

good points!

well, the only restaurant here that had dancers (us) stopped doing that cause of the expense, and gigging here other than that consists of the very occasional private party...
apart from Brussels there really is NO restaurant scene.

so that's rather different than people going on to be professional dancers dancing 4/5 times per week (or night)... i should rather paint them the picture that they now that that's never going to happen.
we have a few private parties per month if we are lucky, usually much less.

i'm really trying to get into the corporate events world where they want multiple dancers, and that is slowly slowly hitting off. and there it pays off that i'm one of the few schools with several advanced students that are still with me, so i can provide mutliple dancers that know each other well enough to provide a show together, matching costumes, the lot. not thrown together.

but more info on how to handle things when they are doing gigs completely on their own, not through me, hmm, that something i should put on the agenda some time. good idea.

sprry for the thread highjack nukleopatra. let us know what happens!

Thank you all so much....this thread has really dug into the bigger issues that I have been facing. So far, I wrote a letter to the owner that is being followed up with a private discussion. Basically the letter is diplomatic and to the point, thanking him for booking me in the past year and letting him know what the going fee for dancers in the city is, and that I will now be charging that going rate.

Second is the bigger issue...dealing with my teacher...since writing this post, there have been some more problems and situations emerging, and with that I have also written him a letter explaining how I feel about this whole situation and all the arrangements he has made, and that I will no longer work for the "undercut" rate. This letter is also being followed with discussions and negotiations. Basically if we can't come to an arrangement that makes us both happy I will be bowing out, because I have come to realize how much this whole issue is draining me...I am no longer enjoying myself (which is why I dance in the first place) as it seems there is a new stressful situation every week to dread....and I just end up feeling used in the end.

I have no problem giving "financially" for private shows or extra shows given to me...but again...I think it should all be upfront (dancer knows what the deal is.) I also think that in some cases the fee should be added in to the total fee charged to the customer, but in my case (and all the other dancers who work for him) it is always taken from the dancers end...so it substantially undercuts us (dancers). I don't think people mind paying for a service provided. I don't believe there are very many ways around the situation and I agree with tamrahennatx when you said "It's a way for the instructor to keep hold of the reins with her students, and to keep her fingers in all the pies she possibly can" (I think that pretty much sums up my situation).

Thank you all for the support! Since I am currently in negotiations, I will be sure to post the outcome.

Wow, Nukley! You sound so strong now. Please keep us up to date.

wow.
Totally unethical of him to do.
Be strong - I'm sure there are other dancers in your community that will support you.

*sigh* This is the problem with Troupe leaders pretending to play agent....I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this right now. The ladies here have so much amazing advice to offer. :)