Thread: undercutting teachers

for years i've competed with people teaching in their garages for $10 but competing with somebody teaching at the local college for $10 for 8 weeks is a pill.

FBAS 316 Classical Belly Dancing ($10)
Both male and female students will enjoy music from various parts of the Middle East while learning this beautiful dance of the ages.
ROOM
09926 S 12:00PM-02:00PM 71-1 AMES P
(02/23 - 04/26)
09927 S 12:00PM-02:00PM 71-1 AMES P
(05/03 - 06/21)

i'm going to start naming the undercutters too. meet patricia ames. i charge $35.00 for 4 classes at the Barstow Academy of Dance & $40 for 4 classes at the Town of Apple Valley. this is my living.

what do you charge??

when i juxtaposition with what i have paid for classes for years i would like to throttle not this idiot but the college for thinking this is appropiate.

fyi if you take any other class thru the college community courses you pay on average $50-60 soo this isn't even typical college rate.

,m:: ..cr.: ,m:: ..cr.: .p:: .p:: .p:: .p::

Wow......is there any chance that could be a typo?

~~Kimahri

$10 for an 8-week session????!!???

Surely it's a typo and it's supposed to say $100.

Or $10 per class?

Or a $10 materials fee in addition to the tuition?

OMG.

not a typo. i called. i had students taking it. this is non credit classes thru the local college. other classes like tae kwon do & quilting are around $50-60 for 8 weeks. apparently the lady tells people it's low cause she's not experienced but wants to share MED with people.

There used to be (and may still be) a lady teaching around here for $3.00 per class. That's 13x less than my teacher charges...and yet you don't see me ditching my teacher for the cheaper one. $40 for a four week course still seems scandalously low to me as well. Try $40 for ONE two hour class!

Then she should be telling people about your classes, so they can take from someone experienced. Or, if she feels she's good enough to teach, she should charge the going rate.

Why in the hell would the local college want to have an admittedly inexperienced teacher working for them?????? Geez.

FBAS 317 Line Dancing ($50)

Whether you?re going to a party, a wedding, a cruise, or just a night on the town, this class will have you covered with classics like the Electric Slide, Cha Cha, Country line, shuffle and much more... The next time you hear your favorite line dance song, do not be the one sitting out. Get up and dance!

ROOM

09935 F 06:00PM-07:30PM 10-4 EVERLY S

(02/22 - 04/04)

09936 F 06:00PM-07:30PM 10-4 EVERLY S

(04/18 - 05/23)


this is line dancing at the same college. tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

apparently the lady tells people it's low cause she's not experienced but wants to share MED with people.

So she really doesn't know what she's talking about, but she just wants the opportunity to share her lack of knowledge with others? And a COLLEGE is okay with that? ..cr.:

It seems to be a trend - a local restaurant has girls teach for free, with the intention of forming a troupe with the students. I rejected the offer to be a guest instructor; I think it was meant to be a compliment, but part of me felt rather offended.

i've had to compete with low rate teachers holding classes in garages, back yards but i think if somebody teaches at a college there is a veneer of "better" applied to them. surely the college would only have the BEST right?? & she has a captive clientele roaming around all day possibly looking for a fun class to do.

i used to get college chickies & wondered where they went. with a gas crunch, local stations charging $3.99 a gallon & my bosses REQUIRING me to maintain a certain number of paid students i'm pissed. tina

Before I say this, let me qualify it by saying I am NOT defending this woman in any way. But some of the blame might rest with the college; i.e. in some cases the teacher doesn't have any say in what the college charges (this is a problem for me at a comm. college where I currently teach).

HOWEVER:

Originally Posted by tattood1

apparently the lady tells people it's low cause she's not experienced but wants to share MED with people.

This leads me to believe that she DOES have some input in what is being charged, and she is playing the "lack of experience" card to justify undercutting.

Soooooo, I enjoy watching ballroom dance on TV, I think it's pretty cool, but I don't have any real experience at it, so how about if I start a ballroom class and just charge $10 for eight weeks...cause I just want to "share" ballroom with the world...

my sources say she's elderly, a mecda member & loves MED but nobody can say if she has a history of teaching or performing.

i saw an ad from the college looking for community instructors but thought geee i couldn't pass their vetting process!! m'kay. maybe i shoulda contacted them!! tina

i really enjoy watching crime shows so based on that i want to work for the FBI & hunt down serial killers cause i think it would be rad.

i used to shrug this stuff off but i've been teaching for 6 years. i've taught for 2 cities. i teach for a dance studio. i just got put through the ringer to get hired there this summer there. i'm required to have X number of people paid to take my class or i get cancelled. i no longer have a sense a humour about this.

tina

Also re: colleges (well, community colleges)...most MED classes will fall in the realm of community/continuing ed, and continuing ed operates in a whole different universe from the credit classes. Con ed departments at colleges are interested in maintaining a variety of course offerings just to draw in registrations; they're not so concerned about the quality of their instructors. Sometimes I have thought of giving up my community college classes because frankly the quality of the instruction is way more important to ME than it is to the college, the pay isn't great and the drive is very far for me. However, I believe I am the only legitimate MED teacher in that area, and I KNOW the college is not picky in their screening process for continuing ed teachers, so I am horrified at the thought of who would end up taking over the MED classes there. (Example: one of the local rec classes in the same area has a "belly dance teacher" who uses the splits in her WARM-UPS for BEGINNERS).

Originally Posted by tattood1

i saw an ad from the college looking for community instructors but thought geee i couldn't pass their vetting process!! m'kay. maybe i shoulda contacted them!! tina

You should contact the colleges in your area...at least then they would be getting a real teacher w/ experience.

i think the economy is going to kill my classes this year so this makes me wanna cry THX for the sympathy ya'll. tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

for years i've competed with people teaching in their garages for $10 but competing with somebody teaching at the local college for $10 for 8 weeks is a pill.

That is just wrong. You have to charge people at least as as much as a movie matinee for each class, or else they won't respect you or the dance.

.p::

What is that college doing? How can they possible offer any class, let alone a dance class for that price? They MUST be aware that they are cutting into local buisnesses' profits that way? It's discraseful that an "academic" institution could be so careless towards their won community.

Oh man, I am sorry to hear that there is such a lack of thought by these people when they charge so so little. It seems that they DO feel justified in not charging much if they are inexperienced, it kinda like their concession for not taking money.
What the Hell are they doing teaching in the first place? Maybe they should have social nights at their homes and have music and dance.
In Visalia I had a student that took classes fro about 6 months and then started teaching out of her home and charging 3.00 a class...she justified it by saying "Oh, I only teach what I learned from you so its nothing wrong" Whhhhattt????
We also have a well know dancer her in SD that is teaching for (last I heard) 8.00 a class and she
a very experienced and respected dancer.

What you may not know....

You are only seeing the price paid by the students. The college could be supplementing her income with a lump sum payment.

One of my teachers teaches a class at a local university. The students and staff pay very little to attend class. But the teacher is actually paid by the university. Basically the university is subsidizing the class for its students & staff.

Im just saying - that could be what's going on.

this is a small junior college. these classes are the non credit recreational classes. if the instructor is getting paid some $$ great but that is not my concern. tina

Originally Posted by tattood1

apparently the lady tells people it's low cause she's not experienced but wants to share MED with people.

Holy crap.

This drives me crazy too! At least she charges something! Imagine if the classes were free, this happens all the time!
One might think that people won't take a cheap class because they will see is not a professional teaching...but I gotta say yes, they will. People with no experience will take whatever class is available, and the cheaper the better. At least in the beginning, then the ones that stick to the dance will look for someone more experienced.


Its time to have the Belly Dancer Union, a sort of professional membership in which each professional would have their Card and present that when teaching/dancing, proving that she/him has been teaching/performing for some time and its a professional. That would maybe help us voice our concerns and deal with situations like that and specially with restaurants...
Its just an idea that I have for years,...but it could work.
Good luck Tina, and I know some months from now those students will end up knocking on your door.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

You should contact the colleges in your area...at least then they would be getting a real teacher w/ experience.

Amen to this. This cheap-o course needs a quality counterbalance.
Are there any other colleges in your area where this would work?

nope this is it.

i've been bd job hunting off and on for a year. i've been asked to produce a resume, references ( that were checked) I was even asked to produce & cpr /first aid card. repeatedly asked if i have awards or cerificates (nope). how many of you have had to do that??

i was hired by 2 different places. one the class has been going for about 6 months. the other we are still taking names. it's at a yoga studio across from the college. the studio was going to charge $65 for 5 classes. yay this is personal.

i just emailed the yoga studio & told her i don't think having a class there is possible under these conditions & it's up to her if she wants to continue to promote it.

we here on bhuz "know" what bd is the GP doesn't & they look at prices.

This is a bad situation, but is there any chance that over time a certain percentage of students will "graduate" to your classes? If any of the college students happened past the yoga studio and peered in the window, surely they would see a difference in how class was being taught?

Originally Posted by tattood1

it's at a yoga studio across from the college. the studio was going to charge $65 for 5 classes. yay this is personal.

i just emailed the yoga studio & told her i don't think having a class there is possible under these conditions & it's up to her if she wants to continue to promote it.

I wouldn't give in yet, though. At least do a session at the yoga place and see what kind of numbers you get. There will eventually be students who are looking for something more/something real, and you can be that alternative. Yes, the GP at large is generally uninformed, but once a beginning student gets into bdance and starts poking around on the Internet, they start to get a reality check and realize they are missing *something*, even if they can't put their finger on what that is yet.

with $3.99 gas in a area where everybody drives a huge SUV & drives miles just get milk I doubt anybody will choose a $65 class over a $10 class.

I would seriously write a letter to the director of the recreation programs at that college and tell them how damaging this woman's pricing is to the private sector. Be sure you point out that their other classes (martial arts, quilting, or whatever) are *not* undercutting the private sector, and that it is just this one woman. You might be surprised with the response you get from them.

I understand your frustration and you absolutely have a right to it! But don't give in so easily! It won't take long for a student with a touch of natural ability to "outgrow" an inexperienced instructor and be looking for more. After hipdrops, hiplifts and maybe a shimmy or undulation the novelty of finding a "cheap" class will be eclipsed by the need for a quality class. Start marketing yourself as quality and experience (you can do that without ever referencing the undercutter.)
Go talk to the school! Ask them what qualifications they're looking for and when they say they found someone ask if you can leave your resume & card and suggest that they may want to offer an additional class for their beginners to 'graduate' to..g.: .
Find a venue that you can perform at on a regular basis: restaurant, hookah bar, coffee house (even a Mexican food place may go for offering live bellydance say every other Fri, pull out the Alabina or Amr Diab & brush up on you're gypsy fusion) -- you can negotiate a lower wage plus tips for a trial period then raise your rate as their "live belly dance night" grows. Many patrons will ask if you teach and will want to take from you.
The only thing that's off limits is bad-mouthing the other instructor around town (because no one cares how good you are if they think you're petty -- you're not, but the gp doesn't know the difference yet.) Keep it within your "inner circle" of family, friends & Bhuzzers. Naming names within the dance community here is one thing, doing it about town could cost you.
Basically, don't go down without a fight! You're worth more; make them know it!