Thread: Help! Need opinions, Update GRRRRRRR!!!!

I am head dancer at a new venue. I wrote before about some probs I was having with one of the dancers. Well it has a new twist now. Same dancer....I will call dancer x. Dancer x gets booked for a private party at the venue. I write to tell her that I hope she charged them full private party rates (she already undercut the gig when I was first establishing dancing there so now we are all paid less than what i asked for). She writes back telling me several reasons why she charged half of what the going rate is. First was that the woman hiring here couldn't pay more than 75.00, second was that she needed the money and third was it was still more than she would make at her day job for the same amount of time. So, I need you guys to review my response letter to her and makes sure i don't sound snarky or bitchy. This woman is related to the owners. She is new to the area and I really want to stress to her the importance of charging what we are worth! Here is what I wrote:

Regarding the dance rates, I am going to give you some counter points to consider when negotiating your rates. This issue has had much discussion over the years. We are already paid far less than we are worth. To address your #1: I know you are new here and that makes it especially important to set your rates at what the current going rate is. By charging less you essentially undercut the other dancers which makes it very difficult for anyone else to get work. If people cannot afford to properly pay the performers than they should not have entertainment. When I go somewhere I don't order the filet mignon then try to tell them I can only afford 10 dollars so could they please give it to me anyways. #2: That point is hard to argue with, and I totally understand it. I have been there myself. Still, it is the overall picture I try to look at. I ask myself, Am I going to undercut everyone? Is it worth it to me to bring our value down? Once the rates are brought down in a community it takes years, if ever to recover them to what they should be. We need to stick together as professionals. #3 kind of falls back to #2. You need to look at your dancing as completely separate and not compare it to your day job. I know it is hard when people need the money. Think of other entertainment professionals. Do you think a band would take 1/2 their normal rate just because the person hiring them doesn't have it in their budget to pay more? Heck, no! I hope you can look at this as constructive advice. I not trying to be mean or difficult. I am just offering you some help. I know your new here which makes it all the more important to follow already established pricing guidlines. If you want to talk about this more, I am always here for you.


How's that sound?
----- Original Message -----

It sounds pretty good, but it also sounds as if it's your opinion, not fact.

Why not try pointing her to other sources that would bolster your argument? Samira Sharuk has a rates page where her issues (the same as every dancer the world over) are discussed, so does Morocco, so does Amira Jamal.

You could also do a web search and see what the other local dancers are charging in your area (Boston starts at $150), give her links to that information as well (if available)

Good luck!

To me, it does just sound pretty controlling and the final disclaimers about how you only mean to be helpful might not be too convincing after all the other stuff. It might be better to keep it simpler . . . offering her any helpful info on what other dancers are getting, and encouraging her to charge the going rates, but with with main emphasis on the fact that this is in her best interest. You can tell her that SHE really deserves to get more than that, and to get as much as other dancers do, and if she gets that message, it will be good for everybody.
Rosette

I am glad I asked because I don't want to sound controlling. Some of that is probably my frustration coming through since I have had nothing but issues from technique, to costuming to undercutting. *sigh*. Not that I am all that, but I just had high hopes of establishing a very professional venue with quality performers. Maybe I am expecting too much.

Can anyone post links to some of the rates pages for dancers? Maybe pointing her to those is better than me trying to address the issue directly.

It might also help to tell her that in terms of networking with other dancers, she's likely to cause hard feelings if she doesn't at least make an attempt to charge the going rates, and letting her know that other dancers might not consider her for referrals if they think that she is not going to charge the going rates.

I know that I don't refer grams that are out of my area (or in my area) to people who I think won't maintain the rates, including those who I know have undercut.

In essence, you're trying to bring her into the community, not alienate her, and as the more experienced dancer sharing tips with her, these are important points.

Originally Posted by stardancer

Can anyone post links to some of the rates pages for dancers? Maybe pointing her to those is better than me trying to address the issue directly.

BellyDanceBoston (617) 501-7795
Nepenthe: Belly Dancer - Cambridge MA
Jemileh Nour Belly Dance


those are the ones I know off the top of my head.

The bottom line is that in the end, all of you make less. So if she is doing this because she needs the money, wouldn't she like to make MORE money over a longer period of time.

To be honest, I started reading your response and my eyes glazed over. It's too long. If you're the head dancer and she accepts gigs at the restaurant, shouldn't you all have set pricing for that? I feel it's not out of line to expect that. What she does for her own private gigs is not in your control, but what happens in the restaurant might be something you can control.

Your overall tone sounds a bit condescending, as if you are trying to school her (which you are, but...nobody listens when they think that's what's going on!).

Also, do spell and grammar check. If you are going to school her, make sure you don't have any glaring errors. I will make some suggestions in your letter in another post below.

I told her in the beginning what the private party rate at the restaurant was. She just disregarded it. I think I will just email her the links and then phone her to talk some more about it. It's hard to not sound bitchy, lecturish, or condescending in an email...lol!

Here's a suggested draft (I would suggest meeting with her face-to-face rather than sending email; this is a big issue and needs to be dealt with a little more formally):

Dear X:

I wanted to meet with you to talk about the dance rates in our area. I, and many other dancers in our area are working hard to make sure we earn what we are worth. I'd love to include you in this ongoing discussion because I know all of us want to be paid well for the art and entertainment we provide.

Over the years, I have come across some really helpful information about negotiating rates for parties, restaurant performances, etc. This issue is a hot topic with dancers all over the world, because we are already paid far less than we are worth. I can give you some website information so you can see what other dancers have done.

We need to stick together as professionals. Dance rates do not compare to what we earn at our day jobs, because we have to consider the costs of dance training, costumes, make-up and transportation that go into a good party performance.

I know you are new here and I want to make sure you are in the loop--every community is a little different! I want to welcome you and help you get paid what you are worth. Let's meet for coffee so we can talk more.

Sincerely,

Stardancer

I went back and found about 10 typos in that. ARRGH.

Hi Stardancer, I have to agree with Kina that pointing her toward information about the "going rates" will hopefully help her to realize that this is what SHE deserves, as well as any other professional in the field. It also partially removes you from the equation if you have several sources to help guide her and it won't just sound like it is your opinion. Instead she will see that this is what the expected rate in this field of very talented professionals is! This is a tricky situation.....As a new dancer, or a person struggling for money, maybe point out to her that it may take a little patience in the beginning to help people understand that this is the cost, but once it is established, it will be much more worth while because we will all end up making more in the long run, herself included. Hope this helps!

I think showing her the going rates is a start, but knowing the situation a bit, I have a feeling she'll just disregard them and do her own thing--afterall, this seems to be her MO. In addition to showing her going rates, I think it's important to explain to her why we charge these rates and why it's important to stick to them. I believe Morocco has a page on this, as well as some other sources. Give her those links as well. Also, explain to her that it's best for her in the long run to stick to pull together as a community. She'll make more money in the end (if that's a motivating factor).

Another good source is Michelle's article on Gilded Serpent on how to charge what you're worth. Michelle Joyce writes about How to Charge for the Gilded Serpent

On the lines of "still making more than she would at her day job for that amount of time"

People don't take into consideration the amount of time it takes to select music, practice, burn the CD, get ready that evening (hair, makeup, etc.), drive to the venue, sit and wait until it's your time, wait to get paid, drive home. All of that is time spent at that gig. When you add those variables into the equation you get a much lower per hour rate. Plus if you figure in the cost of attending workshops/classes, purchasing makeup, hairspray, costumes, music, gasoline. I could go on and on. I think that's really worth it to mention, because people don't think about all of those little things that add up. Christ, I spend 1 1/2 hours doing my hair and makeup, and that makeup...I don't even want to know how much I've spent on glitter and eyeshadow!

*edit: I see mish mish touched on this point. I think it's really important to bring this up when people talk about how high the rates are. I like the suggested edits; it makes for an easier-to-read message. I really hope you get this sorted out! What a pain...

Just try to befriend her as much as you can. If you do that, it will be much easier to influence her.

Originally Posted by aazura

I think showing her the going rates is a start, but knowing the situation a bit, I have a feeling she'll just disregard them and do her own thing--afterall, this seems to be her MO. In addition to showing her going rates, I think it's important to explain to her why we charge these rates and why it's important to stick to them. I believe Morocco has a page on this, as well as some other sources. Give her those links as well. Also, explain to her that it's best for her in the long run to stick to pull together as a community. She'll make more money in the end (if that's a motivating factor).

Another good source is Michelle's article on Gilded Serpent on how to charge what you're worth. Michelle Joyce writes about How to Charge for the Gilded Serpent

aazura!!!! hugs!

I think you are letting your pet peeves get in the way and I agree with what many girls have already posted here.

Maybe invite her to have a drink and talk to her. Tell her that her dancing and time to get ready is worth more than 75.00 -- maybe she needs to learn more about the art of negotiation and dealing with clients.

Talk to her face to face, not email because in email people always sound condescending and nasty when they don't mean to be. Maybe print out the pricing and ask her if she wants to see it and go over it with her - all the while conveying to her that it is soooo important to charge more than what she thinks she is worth. Maybe she feels she is only worth 75.00 - it would help you (in so many ways) if you told her she is worth so much more.

yeah, maybe print out articles/pricing and hand them to her with just a little handwritten note/comment about how lots of dancers work really hard to make the art a respected profession.

if you're willing, offer to help her with a professional rates sheet. if she's related to the owners you guys all have to be on the same page.

Originally Posted by Safiyah

On the lines of "still making more than she would at her day job for that amount of time"

People don't take into consideration the amount of time it takes to select music, practice, burn the CD, get ready that evening (hair, makeup, etc.), drive to the venue, sit and wait until it's your time, wait to get paid, drive home. All of that is time spent at that gig....

Another factor people often forget...if you have a "day job" working for a company on a W2, that company usually takes taxes out for you and your income is taxed at something in the vicinity of 25-30% (depending on where you live/how much you make.)

When you are dancing in a restaurant, you are typically an independent contractor (regardless of whether the restaurant gives you checks and a 1099 at the end of the year or pays you cash and doesn't claim it, YOU are still supposed to claim the income.) Independent contractors are taxed at a much higher rate--one that can often get close to 50%! So while that rate may *sound* like more than she's making at her day job, taxes in addition to preparation and transportation will whittle away at the *actual* take home income.

I think the first letter was fine, but mish-mash's version was even better.

Really, how could someone take it the wrong way - hearing that you could and should make more money is always good news, right?

Another thing to think about is this: You and the restaurant have set a rate and she has decided to not honour that rate. You have grounds for temination. She is not playing within the set rules foor hte venue.

I know, that's harsh. But a friend of mine jsut got bounced from a private gig because hte venue will only allow their own dancers to perform there at the rate which the venue has set. So, there you go.

Just a thought.

That's what I was thinking--if she chooses to take undercutting rates at the restaurant and won't respond to your influence, I'd cut her loose from the restaurant. Be nice, but firm about the expectations for pay rates.

Have all the dancers sign contracts which they must abide by.

Originally Posted by kina

aazura!!!! hugs!

Hugs back!! I miss you guys!! (but it's sunny and warm in California! )

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Another thing to think about is this: You and the restaurant have set a rate and she has decided to not honour that rate. You have grounds for temination. She is not playing within the set rules foor hte venue.

That is part of the problem. There is not a set rate for private parties with the restaurant. Just a sort of agreement between the dancers working there. I provided her with a list of the going rates in our area when she first started. The owner thinks my private party rate is waaaay overpriced and says I should be happy with whatever people can afford. Also , Dancer x is a relative of one of the owners so i have to be careful to remain very nice, helpful but educating her at the same time.

Can you set a rate that you can all live with?

I would hope so but I just don't think we will see eye to eye. She is charging 75.00 for a 25 min private party show. It's not even worth it to put my makeup on for that.

Here are a couple links:
Standard rates and professional links and guidelines
belly dance rates
performing and professionalism

Originally Posted by stardancer

I would hope so but I just don't think we will see eye to eye. She is charging 75.00 for a 25 min private party show. It's not even worth it to put my makeup on for that.

What is the going rate in your area?

In my neck of the woods pricing for a 20 min show starts at 175.00 but in Boston proper it is over 200.00.