Thread: Awkwardness with a student now (long)

So, we had our student showcase nearly a month ago. I hired the father in law of one of my students to tape the show. I told him I'd give him $200 because that's what we gave the guy last year and he was horrible. I tipped this guy $50 (because I'm a bellydancer and always over tip everybody).

I had really high hopes for this years video. My student told me that her father in law did videography as a side job, so I thought he'd be good. She also said that he was going to edit it with everyone's names on it, and they went there ahead of time to check the lighting.

Well....almost a month later I get the dvd back. I was patient because I thought "Wow, he's really putting a lot of work into editing this. It should be great." Um, yeah. I got the dvd last night, and almost got sick watching it. First of all, two dances are missing. One is a solo, and one is a BIG group number (15 people in it). Then, the lighting is so horrible - especially in my solo - most of the time you can't even tell what you are looking at because the person is a big white blob. I am the biggest white blob of all (and my costume was black), and I'm especially dissapointed because I was going to use my solo as a clip on my website for potential clients.

Then - there are these wacky edits throughout each dance, which cut out big chunks of the choreography (one of the solos was approximately 4 minutes - it's been reduced to about 2 minutes because of the edits). During my drum solo with Joe, he puts in these horrible clips of Joe's hands drumming, but they are from the beginning of the drum solo, and he intersperses them throught the drum solo, totally interrupting the rythym and making it really painful to listen too.

He completely cut out the big group finale, which is all my students dancing on stage at once, and just showed everyone going into the audience and dancing with their family.

It's absolutely horrible. I was going to sell the dvds, to recoup the costs of the videographer, but I wouldn't sell these for a dollar, they are so bad.

I emailed my student last night saying I want the raw footage, and she emailed back that she is uncomfortable being in the middle of this. I understand that and I will deal with her father in law directly from now on.

But, I feel weird with her now, now that she knows I am so unhappy with the work he did. I sent an email out to all show participants (she's on that mailing list) asking for ANY video footage of the show, so that I can have a friend of a friend edit the best versions of each dance into one dvd.

Also, last year our video was crappy and kept skipping, and we got half of our money back (after we demanded it). But that videographer wasn't related to a student, so I didn't mind the fact that he hated me after all this was over. This time, I don't want the guy hating me, because I see his daughter in law every week, so I don't know how to ask for my money back. ..c::

Ugh....I definitely learned one major lesson though - I don't care how much it costs, next year, we are hiring professional videographers. Period.

"next year, we are hiring professional videographers."

i think that's the main lesson from all this. i've had family of students video for us, but those video's where never meant to be more than "archive footage". very well done sometimes, but i would never COUNT on it. if you want something to sell... you need to get the pro's in.

i think you should just tell your student exactly what you told us: that you are uncomfortable with the situation, that you also dont want her to be caught in the middle, etc...

i think realistically, unless they offer, you have little chance of getting your money back.... i'm assuming this was all done without contracts and official bills?

Yeah, I mean, we basically just wanted archive footage too - the price I sell them for is so cheap, it's really only to cover the cost of the actual dvds and cases, and just a slight amount of money back from what I spent on the videographer. But this isn't even archivable - I mean there are dances missing!! All I want is a tripod set up with a video camera to record the whole show from start to finish. Apparently, I've learned that is too much to ask from "professional" videographers. I'm majorly bummed....

Real pro's are really expensive though. for a real pro dvd of a show, i've been quoted anything 1000E and upwards! so far we went for the cheap version too...

hopefully you get enough raw material together to at least have something!

I know, I'm NOT looking forward to that expense!

Thank you, I hope we can salvage something too!

I've seen a scenario where pros did the same thing. In fact, the worst I've ever seen was by 'pros.' Though I think a group that specializes in dance recitals would know better... there's one called Mr. Video in our area that films for free in exchange for the right to sell the videos to students/families.

I think the key is communication -- whoever is doing the video needs to know what you want. Every second of every dance on film, the only 'editing' to be done is to add the dancer's name onscreen, if that. No zooming in, either - the dancer is likely to suddenly drop out of sight or spin away! Put your expectations in writing if you're paying someone.

I agree you have little chance of getting your money back, since you have nothing in writing specifying your criteria, and it's a matter of taste whether his edits are 'improvements.' Very sad, I hope you can get the raw footage back.

As far as preserving the relationship, it would go a long way if you took the attitude that 'he's obviously done a lot of work here, and I'm so sorry I didn't communicate clearly what I needed in the beginning, I could have saved him so much time!" I'm not saying it's all your fault, hope you understand, just suggesting that focusing on the area where you *can* take responsibility will help keep the relationship smoother.

My husband has been so enraged by previous videos that I now have him do it. We set the camera on a tripod and his primary job is to keep people from standing in front of it (or standing next to it & conversing). He does a good job trying to keep everyone on the screen the whole time in group numbers, otherwise leaves the camera alone. I think he's *only* able to leave it alone because he doesn't think he's some kind of artiste! I do the editing myself.

Danielabellydance,
So sorry that happened. This is why I NEVER hire anyone unless I've seen their work before. I cannot afford a professional videographer, this is why I don't have any clips of me that are good enough to put up on my website. I've got tons of clips of me - blurry, lighting horrid, terrible angles, jittery cameras, etc. Even videos of me in other people's shows. They really are just to have for your own reference.

Videotaping is an art, that's why the pro's get the big bucks. And, if they are pros, they have to understand DANCE....videotaping dance is a whole other ball of wax.

To keep the peace with your student, you would have to just chalk it up as an expensive lesson, or just continue to deal with the dad in law, which is going to cause hard feelings no matter which way you slice it.

Major bummer.............................

Sue. I'm all about suing people LOL. I don't know if there was a contract, but it would help you get your money back. If there wasn't one, you should certainly have one with every vendor. It should include at least the purpose of the contract, and perhaps an installment method of payment (i.e., 50% when you sign, 50% when they deliver the product), a breach clause and a refund clause.

Even if you prefer the non-litigious route, be as firm as possible in demanding at least part of your money back and tell him exactly why: bad lighting; choppy editing; numbers are missing - including a major group number and solo; no commercial possibility for the video; no archival value, etc. Maybe that will get you some of your money back.

Professional videographers may be pricey, but the old adage - caveat emptor - certainly applies here. The pricier videographer is likely to be worth his/her cost.

Dealing with the student is another matter. One of my instructors had an issue with a student she hired to take pictures at a show. She was unsatisfied with the student's work and needless to say, the student left the class. Your student may very well take on your conflict with her father-in-law. I know you don't want to put her in the middle, but she was in it the moment you hired him. Definitely speak with her, but don't be surprised if she ends up leaving your class. If he doesn't return your money, or at least part of it, you may nevertheless resent her for it (I would).

LOL! I am an attorney, but I definitely wouldn't sue over $250! Not worth the time!

My student responded to my email - she passed along the info to her father in law and would prefer to be left out of it. Totally understandable. I think she watched the video and knows why I'm peeved. She's acting like she didn't have time to watch it, but who wouldn't take a quick peek if they had a video of a show they were in before anyone else did? And if she watched one second if it, she would see that it was absolutely the worst.

I'm going to deal directly with the dad and leave her out of it. I think maybe I'll tell him that I'm going to have to pay someone else $X to edit it, so I want that back from him - I'll see what happens.

This reminds me of a problem I had when I hired the husband of a friend to design a video cover for me. The covers were OK, but he spent many hours on things that didn't matter to me, which really jacked up the price. ("Look! I carefully took the colors of these costumes to make the font colors! It only took 15 hours!") I was complaining to a friend who happens to be a graphic artist... she asked if I had discussed my budget, and what I wanted him to spend time on. I was embarrassed because I somehow thought he would *know* what I wanted, so we didn't discuss it. This really taught me a lesson about being very specific.

I've been blessed with great videographers, but it's just luck. Perhaps you could approach yours gently, saying that you should have given him written guidelines, but that the industry standard for dance shows is to include all dances; make sure that all dancers are recognizable; adjust for color balance, etc and his job does not conform with this standard. You could say that you're not asking for a complete refund, but you would like $XXX back, *or* you would like an edited video that conforms to the above.

You must be so disappointed, Dani... this kind of thing can be really discouraging.

Yep, very disssapointed. I guess I should have clearly discussed with him what I wanted before hand - but I'm not picky! I just wanted the darn show taped!

It's not even that I don't like the editorial liberties he took, and it's just a matter of taste - like how many of us don't like the choppy way BDSS videos are taped. It's that he did things that don't make sense - like cutting out in the middle of a dance for no reason, only to pick it up again 20 seconds later. Why would you do that?? Even to a non-dancer, I don't see how anyone could think that was good editing - you are watching the dance and all of a sudden you go "Whoa, what was that??"

And the missing dances, well, that's just riduculous. I really didn't think I needed to be clear that I wanted all the dances in the show when I told him to "tape the show".

The lighting and stuff I would let slide, if that was the only problem. Yes, it sucks. But he is not a super-pro, and I know lighting can be hard to get right. But the culmination of the lighting, and the crazy editing, and the missing dances, the whole thing is just stinky.

I will definitely have contracts (bad attorney for not having one!) and pre-show meetings from now on to convey what I want. Which, again, is NOT much!!

I so agree with Maria and Lauren. Even if you hire a pro, you may still get the weird "artistic" shots.
You should try to find someone who has done dance production shoots and wont cut off heads and legs and present torsos and boobs only.
Dont overthink the problem with your student, she probably knows how her father in law is by now and is content to let you work it out with him.
In otehr words, she probably isnt as worried about it as you are and wont see it as a reflection on her if you just treat her the same as always.
Show her you are over it, continue on, no griping in class, dont even mention it anymore and go forward with next years plans.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I will definitely have contracts (bad attorney for not having one!) and pre-show meetings from now on to convey what I want. Which, again, is NOT much!!

Yes! You're right, you're definitely not asking for much, but unfortunately people need to understand how important a show is. $250 is not much. But - at the risk of sounding like a TV commercial - the months of practice, the promotion, the blisters on your feet! - priceless. And definitely worth more than the $250. It's a shame he didn't do a better job to capture it all.

P.S. I LOVE bellydancing lawyers :) I think the combo makes for a fierce dancer (not that I'm partial or anything )

Hi Daniela-

I don't know if you know this, but I am a professional videographer and editor specializing in bellydance videos. And I am located in New York, and I also live in Queens! I'm a bellydancer as well plus I went to film school to learn videography and editing.
Yes, you need to be specific with what you want. I would never, ever do any editing within the show. Adding a title is different but I usually take care of that in the DVD chapter menu. The only time I would edit is if there were two different cameras (one to get close-ups) and you wanted to make a really amazing video. For a student performance, you probably don't need to get that fancy.
The lighting-- I don't know what the situation was with your theater but the white blob means that there was a very hot light hitting the stage. If your videographer did not have a 3 chip camera (always make sure that the videographer you are spending $200 on has a 3 chip camera or better) theater lighting could come out as a big white blob. Even with my professional 3 chip camera sometime I still get the white blob effect. I then hit a setting on my camera called "spotlight" which brings down the glowiness.
You need to get the raw footage from the videographer. He screwed up the editing and really owes you a copy of just the raw footage. He should probably give you some money back. If you need help re-doing it just let me know.

Amy, I did think of you!!! Thanks for the info. I will be pm'ing you shortly (after work, actually) to ask you something.... ;-)

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

It's not even that I don't like the editorial liberties he took, and it's just a matter of taste - like how many of us don't like the choppy way BDSS videos are taped. It's that he did things that don't make sense - like cutting out in the middle of a dance for no reason, only to pick it up again 20 seconds later. Why would you do that?? Even to a non-dancer, I don't see how anyone could think that was good editing - you are watching the dance and all of a sudden you go "Whoa, what was that??"

And the missing dances, well, that's just riduculous.

I agree with you totally on this. You shouldn't need to communicate that the WHOLE SHOW should be on the tape.

I suspect he removed those dances/sections because something about the video itself was SO BAD that he felt it necessary to remove it. Ran out of film? Chatted loudly with someone while standing next to the camera? Tried to zoom or pan and effed up the footage? You'll find out *if* you can get the raw footage!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I suspect he removed those dances/sections because something about the video itself was SO BAD that he felt it necessary to remove it. Ran out of film? Chatted loudly with someone while standing next to the camera? Tried to zoom or pan and effed up the footage? You'll find out *if* you can get the raw footage!

That's what I am worried about! I don't know if I want to see the raw footage!! ..c::

Not that she needs any endorsement, but Amy is great! I danced at Ranya's '06 Spring Show and got a DVD from Amy of the numbers I was in. She really does fantastic work.

You might want to look for a videographer at your local high school, college, or local public cable access station.

These places have students who understand how camera's, lighting and sound work. And there is no comparision of the quality of the video. They most likely have the latest television grade professional cameras and editing equipment.

Hi!

I been through all of this too with professional "videotaper". It's VERY sad for you and the students when it happens.

Since 3 years, I have very good quality DVDs. My solution? I bought an excellent camera 3CCD and I ask my husband to tape it. He sees bellydance so often so he knows what I/he like to see. He follows my instructions perfectley. If he takes a close up, he takes from the tighs to the head, he doesn't stay longer on a beautiful woman than another one, only 2 shots during a group choreo where he goes from one side of the stage to the other side (don't know the term in English, maybe sweeping ???). With a friend who also has a dance school in another city, she comes to dance in my show and her husband is the 2nd videotaper, taking the shots from the side. At her show, we do the opposite. We bought the same model of camera so it's does a great job.

I hope you will find other tapes that people in the crowd filmed so you can have a great souvenir.

Caro

Originally Posted by Lauren_

We set the camera on a tripod and his primary job is to keep people from standing in front of it (or standing next to it & conversing). He does a good job trying to keep everyone on the screen the whole time in group numbers, otherwise leaves the camera alone. I think he's *only* able to leave it alone because he doesn't think he's some kind of artiste!

This should be printed out on heavy stock paper, laminated, and attached permanently to EVERY camera coming in the door at a Belly Dance event! If more cameramen (yes, I said "men", the ladies aren't going to do a tight zoom down the dancer's cleavage...) would abide by this, the better our videos would be!

No Monkey-Cam!