I've been lurking around Bhuz for a while, gathering up all the goodies and information I can find. I've been dancing for 2 and a half years now, and feel confident enough to start performing in public, for money. But, um... how exactly do I start? Are there any Really Important Points to know? I live in the Northern Virginia/Washington, DC area, where there is plenty of dance activity going on. But, I thought I'd check with the experts (you!) before dipping my toe in the waters.
Also, my style tends toward the more folkloric/fusion side, rather than classic Egyptian. So I'm not even sure which venues would be interested in me.
(Apologies if there is already a thread on this topic. I tried searching, but couldn't find quite what I was looking for.)
A journey of ten thousand miles begins with a single post.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 12,288
Re: How do I start performing?
Can you tell us more about what you mean by folkloric/fusion? I'm not sure if you mean tribal or if you mean Saidi/khaleegy/Tunisian/Hagalla/etc. I think it makes a huge difference in how and where to market yourself.
When you say you've been dancing for two years, do you mean you've been performing as a soloist that long? Or that's how long you've studied?
How much solo experience do you have? And have you done any solos at events for the general public, maybe events sponsored by your troupe or teacher?
how do you start? this is how.
don't listen to others in your community because they will backstab you. they will pretend they charge to get you to charge more - and then behind your back they charge less to steal gigs.
keep your business to yourself, protect it.
contact restaurants that already have live entertainment of any sorts - because those are the places that have entertainment licenses. not every restaurant can just add a dancer. Most dancers are unaware of this.
doesn't matter what style you are - good dancing is good dancing. but if it's an arabic nightclub they will want cabaret.
i would apply to festivals. most already have entertainment booked for summer events, but you can get into fall events. contact senior citizen homes, most have an entertainment budget. when i'm old and in the "home" i pray that dancers will come and make me smile.
when you contact an arabic restaurant, go in for coffee with the owner. don't expect an immediate answer. establish a relationship. if they say no immediately, keep that relationship open, eventually they will hire you.
don't dance for free if they want to "try it." they will never pay you.
if you are just looking for performance experience, hit up an indie coffeehouse and organize a show! i do this for students constantly.
dancers here will start to criticize you to show their superiority and experience. ignore it and dance for the love of the art! let me know how it goes!!
dancers here will start to criticize you to show their superiority and experience. ignore it and dance for the love of the art! let me know how it goes!!
That's how you know you are really good. <sigh> Unfortunately, it exists more than it should.
how do you start? this is how.
don't listen to others in your community because they will backstab you. they will pretend they charge to get you to charge more - and then behind your back they charge less to steal gigs.
keep your business to yourself, protect it.
Lana, dear. By saying "whatever they say, they're charging less; so you should charge less"... You are setting her up to undercut in this area. In the end other dancers would not trust her and then not develop a good trust relationship with her, which would limit referrals etc. This would not help her in the long run in this area.
We've got a really strong community Sasheen and you are welcome to join DCPro dancers, which is a yahoo group. We share all sorts of info.
Yes, what Lana says DOES happen, but it is not the majority in this area. In fact Lana's words are words that owners use on us to try to manipulate us.
Our rates were sadly the SAME for 15 years...but about 5 or 6 years ago we started working together (largely through the yahoo group) and raised them - We raised them for established venues, new venues AND for party gigs. We've worked REALLY HARD and we worked TOGETHER so that our rates reflect professionalism and at least start to make sense for all we put into this (heart, soul, wallet, time etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by lana
contact restaurants that already have live entertainment of any sorts - because those are the places that have entertainment licenses. not every restaurant can just add a dancer. Most dancers are unaware of this.
....
Contacting places that already has live entertainment is a great idea because it means they are interested and set up for it (for example maybe having sound system/lights).
Entertainment licenses vary from state to state however and even county to county. In this area Baltimore and Annapolis venues need to have an entertainment license, MOST other areas do not. BUT, DC is separate from VA and VA will vary from county to county. The easiest way to check is to look up the county alcohol board, as entertainment licenses are often tied to liquor licenses. I hope this info helps. :)
.....
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www.samirashuruk.com The essence of all art is to have pleasure in giving pleasure~ Mikhail Baryshnikov.
Last edited by SamiraShuruk; 06-17-2009 at 10:50 AM.
The best way to get in around here is to
1) Dance at haflas, recitals, workshops shows etc. Working dancers are often participating and if they see someone really promising who they also hear is reliable/responsible, they'll approach her to ask if she might be able to sub. I've done this before at a hafla. They're great for networking.
2) Offer to sub. Find out the REAL price at the venue. Right now I know several owners who are lying to dancers about what they pay, in an effort to get prices back *down* ('cos they LIKED 15 years of paying the same rate).
Offer subbing to dancers and/or offer to the venue, but offer the going rate, not below.
3) Guidance from your teachers may help you. Find out which venues are more welcoming to newer dancers. The Arab audience venues around here are used to experienced dancers- it's best to "cut your teeth" at places where there are more dancers with similar dance experience as yourself. We HAVE those venues. :) That's again where networking comes in.
4) In this area shows that are around 20 minutes are standard. Venues mostly have shows that are 20-25 minutes. Offering more for the same money is undercutting.
5) You should be prepared, really prepared. Things considered professional around here: Costumes that are professional and fit properly, music that is appropriate for the venue, wearing cover up when not performing, using your props well if you choose to use them, zilling well if you choose to zill etc. Your CDs should only contain the music for your show etc
6) I'm not sure exactly what your style is from your post. Folklore Fusion sounds SCA.
Around here tribal fusion / ATS venues are unfortunately slim. :( Tribal Cafe is a monthly professional venue run by the lovely ladies of Romka.
Cabaret venues (most of which are Arabic, although Turkish does pop up from time to time)- to be successful you'll really need sequin costumes, although mesh tummy covers are fine. No coin scarves/coin tops. No choli style tops (unless it's a cabaret costume with sleeves LIKE a choli).
Is your website current? Sasheen: Ethnic Fusion Dance It's very pretty, and nice because it's easy to navigate. Your personal dance history indicates you've danced in two haflas and one other event. I would be concerned you would be better off with more experience in order to feel comfortable with a venues expectations of you. This again is where haflas etc come in handy.
Does your teacher have extensive restaurant performing experience outside of dance school and dance community events? Have you taken with others in this area?
The more professional experience a teacher has, the more will be able to guide you in professional dance. If she doesn't- we've got tons around here who can mentor you.
__________________
www.samirashuruk.com The essence of all art is to have pleasure in giving pleasure~ Mikhail Baryshnikov.
Last edited by SamiraShuruk; 06-17-2009 at 10:55 AM.
- dance at any student opportunity offered to you and build up experience for all sorts of gig situations.
- if she'll let you accompany your teacher to gigs, not to dance with her, but to watch, not just the performance, but the handling of the whole thing.
- get pro costumes and pictures (that last one is one i should have done a hell of a lot sooner in my career)
- get pro make up advice
- get businesscards done with above costumes and pictures
- network network network
and @lana: i'm so sorry if your community is the way you describe it is, but it really is not like that everywhere.
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I recently sent an email to a new local dancer who is in a similar position to yourself, and told her what I charge. I didn't lie about it and I would be disappointed if she deliberately charged less.
I think the best way to check if information is correct is to choose a number of sources and check with all of them. It doesn't make sense to check whether information is correct by assuming what ever you are being told, it's wrong to a degree and making your own adjustment.
how do you start? this is how.
don't listen to others in your community because they will backstab you. they will pretend they charge to get you to charge more - and then behind your back they charge less to steal gigs.
Sasheen, I think you need to worry about backstabbing venue owners more than backstabbing dancers. Your area has a strong contingent of ethical dancers who are raising the bar. You are lucky to live in such an area. Be a part of that, not someone who works against it.
Quote:
dancers here will start to criticize you to show their superiority and experience. ignore it and dance for the love of the art! let me know how it goes!!
Sasheen, people who want to see it this way will see it this way. Is experience being "shown" or "shared"? That will be largely up to you
Sadly, both sides are right. Some dancers are highly ethical and committed to helping one another and gaining respect for the larger dance community. Others are greedy, backstabbing, and desperate, and a few are even, dare I say, somewhat mentally unbalanced. Most teachers are devoted to encouraging their students to master their full potentials, while a few are intimidated by the thought of a student being as good or better than they are, and they consciously or unconsciously stunt their students' growth. The majority of dancers are in the middle--they won't go out of their way to tell you about a gig they want for themselves, but they won't seize opportunities to cut you down either. Good teachers are able to realize that good students reflect back favorably on them.
The larger issue is that sometimes dancers can be unrealistic about their true abilities. Are you really ready to go pro? You can dance at student recitals and haflas, but you simply cannot get professional performing experience without professionally performing. Beginning performers often have a tendency to think that they can compensate for their lack of experience by charging less. On one hand, this is a valid point (yeah, you shouldn't be charging what Dina gets for a gig in Cairo), but it doesn't justify letting customers pay bargain-basement rates. A neurosurgeon who is just starting practice doesn't charge the same fee for a consultation as the Chief of Neurosurgery at the Mayo Clinic, but he also doesn't saw your head open for a nickel. Keep in mind that if you are ready to start performing professionally, you need to ask for "reasonable and customary" compensation. Talk to other dancers in your community that you admire (including your teacher) about whether you are ready to take the plunge. If they agree you are, go for it. If they try to talk you out of it, consider the possibility that they may be right and they're not out to get you or keep you down--maybe you need a bit more practice on the student circuit before you are ready to go pro.
Due to the facts that belly dance is just coming off the crest of a wave of popularity and that the economy has been going downhill, no matter where you live, there are probably far more dancers who want to get paid to perform than people who want to hire them. Competition is fierce out there. One of the most important things you need to know is to be prepared for a few hard knocks.
I second Samira's suggestion about joining the DC Pro message board (Yahoo Group). PM me if you want information. There - you will learn a wealth of knowledge about haflas, performance guidelines, and things to "watch out" for.
As far as restaurants - there are not many places in NoVa that have regular gigs. Yes - there are some but many have either closed their doors or have suspended dancing until the economy improves.
Follow Samira's advice and take this time to "learn what you can".
Perform in haflas - there are many available.
Learn about the rates - from Samira's website.
Prepare your business for dance - get biz cards, setup a phone number, network, etc.
Doing all of this will prepare you for when the economy is better. Many of us - including me - started professionally by meeting people and performing.
Please PM or email me if you have any questions - I am always happy to help.
6) I'm not sure exactly what your style is from your post. Folklore Fusion sounds SCA.
Is your website current? Sasheen: Ethnic Fusion Dance It's very pretty, and nice because it's easy to navigate. Your personal dance history indicates you've danced in two haflas and one other event. I would be concerned you would be better off with more experience in order to feel comfortable with a venues expectations of you. This again is where haflas etc come in handy.
Does your teacher have extensive restaurant performing experience outside of dance school and dance community events? Have you taken with others in this area?
The more professional experience a teacher has, the more will be able to guide you in professional dance. If she doesn't- we've got tons around here who can mentor you.
I'm not sure that my dance style fits into any specific category. I like to wear more covering clothes, that evoke a more traditional feel, but I don't try to copy a specific culture. And the music I use ranges from traditional Arab to pop Arab to Indian to some New Age. So, that's why I call it a fusion of ethnicities (my own included).
Yes, my website is current... although I think I left out a couple of events, now that you mention it. I've been taking lessons for over 2 years, put together my own show, and have danced in... 4 other shows? I think? My teacher thinks I'm ready to perform in public, but I appreciate other opinions! If the lovely ladies (and some gentlemen) on Bhuz think, from their experience, that I should get some more performance under my belt, then I appreciate the advice.
How much solo experience do you have? And have you done any solos at events for the general public, maybe events sponsored by your troupe or teacher?
I only dance solo. It turns out I'm miserable with group work.
I am not shy about dancing in front of a crowd; my "day job" for the last 10+ years basically involves wearing funny clothes and performing for a bunch of strangers all day. (I work at a living-history museum.) I think I could pull it off, but maybe not at a very large venue, or one that is accustomed to having very experienced dancers. But that's why I'm asking all of you fine folks.
if you are just looking for performance experience, hit up an indie coffeehouse and organize a show! i do this for students constantly.
Sounds good! And that is just my style... Less than 1 year after taking serious lessons, I decided I wanted to perform and put on a show for 20-30 friends. It was fun. I'm glad to know I'm not just weird that way.
I'm not sure that my dance style fits into any specific category. I like to wear more covering clothes, that evoke a more traditional feel, but I don't try to copy a specific culture. And the music I use ranges from traditional Arab to pop Arab to Indian to some New Age. So, that's why I call it a fusion of ethnicities (my own included).
Yes, my website is current... although I think I left out a couple of events, now that you mention it. I've been taking lessons for over 2 years, put together my own show, and have danced in... 4 other shows? I think? My teacher thinks I'm ready to perform in public, but I appreciate other opinions! If the lovely ladies (and some gentlemen) on Bhuz think, from their experience, that I should get some more performance under my belt, then I appreciate the advice.
Sounds like your fusion style is not tribal fusion, yet you aren't cabaret either. This means, well, you are your own niche... at the same time, there are not regular paying venues that feature this sort of style. Your choice will be to create your own venues (I would encourage at going professional rates) or to work on learning a more marketable style. It's a choice many of us face when we decide to "get out there".
In the mean time- maybe contact Nina Amaya. She runs the All Season's hafla- you'll meet other dancers, network, watch other dancers, maybe dance... it's a lovely monthly event. One of several ways to get more experience. It's also helpful to get honest feedback from more than one teacher. I recommend this- and we have lots in this area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasheen
I only dance solo. It turns out I'm miserable with group work.
I am not shy about dancing in front of a crowd; my "day job" for the last 10+ years basically involves wearing funny clothes and performing for a bunch of strangers all day. (I work at a living-history museum.) I think I could pull it off, but maybe not at a very large venue, or one that is accustomed to having very experienced dancers. But that's why I'm asking all of you fine folks.
NO reason to be embarrassed about preferring solo over group work (or vice versa). We all have strengths and challenges and will be drawn to different things. AWESOME that you're not shy about getting in front of people. That's an important part of what we do.
__________________
www.samirashuruk.com The essence of all art is to have pleasure in giving pleasure~ Mikhail Baryshnikov.
well, here, i've lost people in my troupe over this, because i simply dont allow that choice... why? because well, the solo's simply go to the people who ALSO put the work in for the troupe numbers. and for gigs we also neeed a lot of troupe numbers, not just more soloists, and i dont want people breezing in there for just the solo stuff. not saying that you are doing that, but saying that to get the solo's, well, it pays of to be easy, go along with everything, and take every chance your instructor gives you to perform, wheter it is solo or group. even if you're not good at it now, you learn from it.
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I just wanted to say, Samira is giving you very good advice. Haflas, DC Pro-dancers, network, choosing to set a good starting rate for yourself, finding appropriate starter venues or learning how to start your own venue, etc. Not as a criticism to your teacher, but in general I think it is a good idea to take from multiple experienced and reputable teachers with professional experience if possible, so you can benefit from the knowledge and experience of more than one teacher. I second everything else that Samira said.
Lana, although parts of the advice you've given are pretty sound, I can't agree with other parts of the advice you are giving.
-A dancer definitely ***should*** listen to other dancers in their community. There are always a few backstabbers out there, but in my experience, the vast majority (and I'm speaking to the dc, md, va areas) are good people really just trying to do the right thing for themselves, their profession and the dance community. Ignorance is never a good option.
-Style will matter in most venues. Naturally, good dancing matters too.
-One has to be careful when establishing relationships with venue owners. I think to a certain extent having a coffee with the owner can get you a shot at a venue, but make sure to keep it professional. Many a venue owner will try to get more out of you than dancing, and you don't want them asking you over for coffee and dinner over and over. You just want them to call you as a dancer. So just, be careful.
- Some criticism will be mean hearted, that's true, but not all, some criticism will come from the best intentions, either way, it isn't a bad idea to take a moment and weigh the criticism whether there is any foundation to it or not. Then you can throw out the bad and learn from the good.
Good luck to you. I hope your experiences are positive.
Samira,
I wish I had had someone like you to tuck me under her wing when I was first starting out! You are giving really great advice here!
I also want to second this point made by Shems:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shems
One has to be careful when establishing relationships with venue owners. I think to a certain extent having a coffee with the owner can get you a shot at a venue, but make sure to keep it professional. Many a venue owner will try to get more out of you than dancing, and you don't want them asking you over for coffee and dinner over and over. You just want them to call you as a dancer. So just, be careful.
Definitely, definitely, definitely be careful in this regard. Keep it very professional. And avoid "hanging out" at the venue for long periods of time (i.e. stopping in for dinner once in a while is OK, but sitting around for hours drinking coffee and "socializing" with owners in hopes of securing a gig is something different and can lead to misunderstandings.
I was on a fly by run through Bhuz and saw this post. Hi Sasheen, I'm also a fellow dancer in your area. I definitely 3rd what Samira and Shems say (both are amazingly fantastic dancers as well as all around nice people), and I think the All Seasons Hafla is a great place to dance and to meet other dancers! It is really inclusive and always has a variety of dancers and many different styles--I've seen everything from Gothic style tribal to traditional folkloric dances to good old American Cabaret (just saw a fabulous performance there this last time with Antonia headlining)! From a beginning dancer to a seasoned pro I think everyone feels comfortable and it really is a good way to meet members of a supportive dance community. The haflas usually book a few months ahead, but you can always go, scope it out, and email Nina for a performer slot!
sasheen,
I'm in your general area as well, and am starting to gig...my advice...LISTEN TO SHEMS AND SAMIRA and AMIRA...they know the ropes, they know the area, and they know their craft. All Seasons is a great venue for getting your chops. It really is wide open to all forms of BD, and often features live music. There are other Haflas in the area as well, some bi monthly, some monthly.
Hi Sasheen, I think you are really smart and ahead of the curve to ask about performing in this forum, and you are getting some great advice.
I think I recall you posting months ago about how you prefer to wear more covered costumes? Performing in public, for money, usually equates to restaurant dancing to me in my area. For me, venues here want dancers in cabaret costumes using Egyptian style music. They wouldn't be open to wearing more covered costumes or different music.
You may have to work to create some opportunities for yourself if the commercial requirements in your area don't jive with what you feel comfortable doing. I guess I'm saying, don't feel discouraged when you go out there and build experience, but work to find the niche that you feel comfortable in.
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