cultural understanding and professional level dancers....

[casbahdance]

Originally Posted by steffib

It all comes down to knowing what to do when.

That one sentence just about sums it all up, IMNSHO.

But as a person unable to just write one sentence on most topics, I feel compelled to add:

I think good fusion is really cool, fusion being something that might draw from BD, but in costuming and additional movement vocabulary and music choices, might go into more its own arena.

I would not expect to go to any Mediterranean/ME restaurant advertising BD entertainment to find big yarn tassels, a choli and 10-yard harem pants on someone dancing to German grunge music.

I might expect that same dancer at a BD festival -- although to be completely honest, I'd hope for at least one song that had a ME feel to it -- or at a coffee house or someplace similar that features entertainment of all sorts.

I am not in the position to say that tribal/fusion/insert your descriptor here style is offensive to ME people, although I guess some might be a bit confused at first if what they were seeing had been described as "BD."

So, it really is knowing what to do and when and where to do it.

Deborah

[raqFariha]

i try to show that i know what the song is about, and where it comes from. things like throwing a saiidi step when i hear the beat, etc. i once had a middle eastern person say to me after my set was over and i was on my way out "you did a very good job, even if no one else knew", and i see a lot of positive reactions when i sing along- luckily the music is loud enough that no one can hear if i mispronounce something ^_~

[toria_dances]

yes this painting is Indian, which I thought Tribal style bellydance took aspects from many different places? I thought we were just saying the people not just animals wear the tassel.

[NazirahDances]

I think there was a misunderstanding Toria, yes, tribal does take things from all over. . . but most of that costuming has little or nothing to do with the Middle East or bellydance and while its appropriate for ATS, its not necessarily appropriate for a ME audience because in the Middle East, its the camels wearing those yummy, fluffy tassles.

[casbahdance]

Originally Posted by Azhia

I demonstrated an ability to understand the rhythms and perform as a technically sound, emotive dancer. This is what got me hired and requested. Not my knowledge or attempted representation of any culture.

(I also tried to avoid any gestures that, to my limited knowledge, could have been offensive to Occidental or Oriental audiences.)

I think alot of BD folks have the idea that if a dancer knows how to acknowledge rhythms (especially "folk-y" ones) then he/she is more culturally "aware" than someone who might not. Strictly speaking, you are correct to say that awareness of rhythms, and acknowledgement of same where appropriate, are dance skills rather than cultural knowledge.

Regarding gestures: to me that's more "cultural" than strictly dance, because many gestures are not confined to dancing; rather, they are a part of everyday life and, as a dancer, it's important to know to not do a big ol' "OK" sign (thumb and first finger forming an "o") at all when around ME folks in general. Winking is another tricky one.

Deborah

[Azhia]

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

I was specifically trying to avoid the "represent" concept. I believe there is a difference between "representing" and "demonstrating understanding."

I think this depends on the transmitter and the receiver. I may intend to just demonstrate, but someone watching may believe that I am representing. I don't think I can control someone's perception of what they are seeing and how they are seeing it.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

So, Azhia, by understanding the rhythms and the dances and costuming that go along with it, as well as all the other tidbits of knowledge that come along with it- you say you haven't developed understanding of the cultures in any way?

Essentially correct, I have not developed an understanding of the cultures. I did understand musicality from the musicians with whom I performed (artists of Arab, Armenian, Greek, Turkish heritage, and, thus, the basis of their distinct musical signatures). Perhaps this begs the question of what is considered "culture." If one includes music and rhythm and knowing food, then yes I've had superficial interaction with and understanding of the culture. If one is referring to language (aside from knowing what a song is or is not about), understanding values, roles, norms, and mores, then definitely not.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Do you study with any Arab/Turkish teachers or taken workshops from some? Did/do you learn any cultural understanding in doing so?

I have learned from Momo Kadous and Dr. Mo Gedawwi but just choreography workshops. I never took Sahra's JtoE seminars, or went to Egypt (nor had an interest in going). I may have learned what certain gestures mean and from what ethnic groups certain movements may have originated, but nothing beyond that.

[NazirahDances]

Back to the original question, I think there should be some level of cultural awareness (or cultural dance skills) if you are going to be performing Middle Eastern Dance. Some dancers will take it further than others, and, in some areas with higher ethnic populations it might affect how much you earn.

Even a non-professional should know some basic history of the dance (and know the difference in history and the commonly heard rumors). Someone dancing Egyptian style would need to have a basic understanding of the regional steps and music that happen in her songs, a Turkish dancer might need to know a 9/8 or meaning of some of the gestures common to that dance. ATS dancers should know where those fabulous bits of costuming they wear come from. Even fusion dancers should know the roots of what they are fusing and have an understanding of the dances in their original context. (These are all examples I pulled out of the air quickly).

Does everyone need to learn the Arabic or Turkish language? Does everyone HAVE to be an educator?

No, but they should have a least some understanding of the cultural context of the dance they are doing. (And it might benefit a professional to have an even deeper understanding.)

[Azhia]

I think the original question was not whether, but do [you as a dancer] ...

[Tourbeau]

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Inspired by this article on ice dancers
Russian ice dance tribute to Aborigines offensive to Aborigines - Fourth-Place Medal - Olympics Blog - Yahoo! Sports
who were meant to represent a culture I thought it might be good "food for thought" in a discussion.

"[Skaters] are required to do an original dance that is representative of a country's culture. "

I can't even imagine what they were thinking when they proposed that idea. They should have insisted that skaters stick to their own culture, because they were just inviting someone to do something naively insulting or inappropriate. The kind of research and training you need to do justice to someone else's culture is not something you throw together in a few months. (See: every Bhuz thread about whether belly dance would benefit from showcasing on SYTYCD, or whether the result would be disrespectful and diminishing to the art form in the long run. For that matter, refer to 95% of the posts ranting about BDSS or complaining about bad gig experiences involving belly dancer stereotypes.)

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

If so, why and how? How do you think it effects your hire-ability?

The more culturally immersed your audience is, the more they expect a dancer to understand the nuances of the art and to be able to present it properly. Unfortunately, years of amateurish dancing and crazy fusion have conditioned a lot of ME-American audiences not to get their hopes up too high when it comes to hiring a dancer. Many of them have become willing to settle for considerably less than they have a right to expect from someone calling herself a "professional belly dancer." Given the choice, I expect most of them would rather have a good dancer who has deep cultural understanding and technique to reflect it, but if you can't get that, then the AmCab girl with the wings and the sword and the veil and the vaguely Middle-Eastern-sounding music who shows up on time in a nice costume will have to do.

Originally Posted by anala

Take the tassels on a lot of the tribal costumes. It is my understanding that they are derived from camel harness decorations. If someone showed up dancing in bits of horse regalia...it would give me pause....

That's what I heard, too. Someone got the notion to turn "Pimp My Camel" into people clothing.

[NazirahDances]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

"[Skaters] are required to do an original dance that is representative of a country's culture. "

The more culturally immersed your audience is, the more they expect a dancer to understand the nuances of the art and to be able to present it properly. Unfortunately, years of amateurish dancing and crazy fusion have conditioned a lot of ME-American audiences not to get their hopes up too high when it comes to hiring a dancer. Many of them have become willing to settle for considerably less than they have a right to expect from someone calling herself a "professional belly dancer." Given the choice, I expect most of them would rather have a good dancer who has deep cultural understanding and technique to reflect it, but if you can't get that, then the AmCab girl with the wings and the sword and the veil and the vaguely Middle-Eastern-sounding music who shows up on time in a nice costume will have to do.

Part of being a professional is knowing both your art and your audience. Using the example above, if it was an Arab audience and they hired the AmCab girl, and she still knew enough about the culture to make a nod to it at times and knew enough not to inadvertently offend anyone, then she still might get hired for another event or get a referral for more work.

If she turned out to be oblivious and happened to dance all peppy to sad Om Kalthoum song, she might not be asked to work for anyone there again.

Were that party able to hire the Egyptian (or whatever) style dancer with the deeper cultural knowledge they "wanted", that dancer might make a killing in tips, and get a ton of referrals for other parties.

But I think it would go the other way as well, an American Audience hiring someone to spice up their wedding reception might not want the Egyptian dancer in the lycra costume who dances with no props save for the brief veil intro. . . but at this point the AmCab girl with the basket of props might book 3 more weddings from that one performance.

If you have the luxury of dancing for one set type of audience, I would say learn everything you can about that culture and it will increase your worth as an entertainer to them. If you dont have that luxury, it might not hurt to be a jack of all trades and learn a bit about the different ethnic groups in your area that you MIGHT some day be dancing for. Wow them once, and you likely make more opportunities to work for them in the future.

But really, isnt all this about good business skills period? The more you know, and the better you represent yourself, the more successful you will be?

[toria_dances]

This Bedouin women has a few tassels:

[NazirahDances]

Yes she does, but they still arent the big fluffy tassels that you usually see on ATS costuming. (I actually HAVE some authentic ones like those in this image from my ATS days. lol)

[toria_dances]

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

Yes she does, but they still arent the big fluffy tassels that you usually see on ATS costuming. (I actually HAVE some authentic ones like those in this image from my ATS days. lol)

ok ok ok ATS is total unauthentic

[Tourbeau]

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

Part of being a professional is knowing both your art and your audience. [...] But I think it would go the other way as well, an American Audience hiring someone to spice up their wedding reception might not want the Egyptian dancer in the lycra costume who dances with no props save for the brief veil intro. . . but at this point the AmCab girl with the basket of props might book 3 more weddings from that one performance.

I guess my point is that the less your audience knows, the easier it is to "wow" them with mediocre dancing, flashy gimmicks, and so on. I'm not implying that wings, veil, sword, etc. are nothing but flashy gimmicks, but I think most dancers would agree that when you're in front of an uninformed audience, you can coast pretty far on not a lot of actual dancing when you've got props. I've seen long veil routines where the dancer didn't actually do any dancing--it was interpretive fabric rearrangement for four minutes. I've seen sword routines that were mostly a series of menacing poses. An ethnic audience is going to look at those kinds of performances and think, "That's nice, but when are YOU going to DANCE?" OTOH, you're absolutely right. Unless you have charisma out the wazoo, an American audience is going to be confused, if not bored to tears, by an introspective, ten-minute, traditional taqsim.

To a similar extent, the same idea applies to how good a dancer you are. You don't really need rock-solid technique to impress people who don't know any better. All you need to be is reasonably on the beat, and not too klutzy. If you can't keep your upper body still during your hip isolations, the average American audience is going to think you meant to do that on purpose. Finger cymbals are the exception. If you're awful at playing them, it's not difficult to tell, even if you've never seen a dancer before.

But really, isnt all this about good business skills period? The more you know, and the better you represent yourself, the more successful you will be?

Sadly, the more you promote yourself and how ruthless you are seem to be the main success factors in a lot of places. You many not get a lot of repeat gigs if you're all blow and no show, but if you live in an area where most gigs are one-off novelty jobs, you can be a thorn in the side of your local dance community for a long, long time.

[laura 2]

This thread is kind of timely. I just got a call about wedding gig next month, from the wedding planner. I asked if one or both of the couple were Middle Eastern (since a westerner having a Belly Dancer at their wedding would be pretty unusual in these parts), and the planner replied yes, but that she believed the families had lived in the US for at least a couple of generations. I asked her what part of the Middle East they were from, to help with my music selection, and she replied, "Uhhhh, does it really matter?"

I explained that if they were from an Arabic speaking culture, Egyptian music is generally well received, although it would be nice to toss in a song specific to their family's background - Lebanese, Syrian,Gulf, what have you. But I told her that if they were Turkish, they would more likely enjoy a set with the majority of songs featuring Turkish lyrics and music. There was dead silence on the phone, and then she said, "I think maybe you should talk to them directly about that. It sounds like it's pretty complicated, and I'd rather have them speak to someone like you who knows what they're talking about. I don't want to accidentally offend them by saying the wrong thing." She seemed very impressed and said that even though I was the first dancer she's called, she wasn't planning on getting in touch with anyone else since "you really know your stuff!"

[casbahdance]

Way to go, Laura!



ETA: Now you have a wedding planner in your area that knows what a pro should sound like! She might even be able to share this new info with others in the business; you know, "here's what to look for" kinda stuff.

Yay!

Deborah

[SamiraShuruk]

Originally Posted by Azhia

Essentially correct, I have not developed an understanding of the cultures. I did understand musicality from the musicians with whom I performed (artists of Arab, Armenian, Greek, Turkish heritage, and, thus, the basis of their distinct musical signatures). Perhaps this begs the question of what is considered "culture." If one includes music and rhythm and knowing food, then yes I've had superficial interaction with and understanding of the culture. If one is referring to language (aside from knowing what a song is or is not about), understanding values, roles, norms, and mores, then definitely not....I think the original question was not whether, but do [you as a dancer] ...

Yes, that was the original question. I wonder where people are who do and where people are who don't and if they see it as effecting their marketability. I was wondering if work is effected in different regions by cultural knowledge beyond dance/musicality knowledge "oh, this is a saidi beat, I'll throw in a few saidi steps."
I'm learning the language, I study a lot of cultural aspects *related to* dance, music, clothing, how people live, how people interact, social values etc.
I've always had a deep interest in cultures though, so it makes sense for me. It also has helped me a lot in my dance work, so it makes sense for me professionally. Not all markets are the same, so I figured I'd ask.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The more culturally immersed your audience is, the more they expect a dancer to understand the nuances of the art and to be able to present it properly.

This has been my experience.

[SamiraShuruk]

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

Part of being a professional is knowing both your art and your audience. ...
If you have the luxury of dancing for one set type of audience, I would say learn everything you can about that culture and it will increase your worth as an entertainer to them. If you dont have that luxury, it might not hurt to be a jack of all trades and learn a bit about the different ethnic groups in your area that you MIGHT some day be dancing for. Wow them once, and you likely make more opportunities to work for them in the future. ...
But really, isnt all this about good business skills period? The more you know, and the better you represent yourself, the more successful you will be?

Sorry to cut out your examples. They were good ones. In fact, I liked your whole post!

Originally Posted by laura 2

.. "I think maybe you should talk to them directly about that. It sounds like it's pretty complicated, and I'd rather have them speak to someone like you who knows what they're talking about. I don't want to accidentally offend them by saying the wrong thing." She seemed very impressed and said that even though I was the first dancer she's called, she wasn't planning on getting in touch with anyone else since "you really know your stuff!"

Great Laura!

[laura 2]

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Way to go, Laura!



ETA: Now you have a wedding planner in your area that knows what a pro should sound like! She might even be able to share this new info with others in the business; you know, "here's what to look for" kinda stuff.

Yay!

Deborah

Thanks! We do have several dancers locally who likely would have known and shared the same information, but it was nice to be on the receiving end all the same. I honestly wasn't trying to show off to her, I just got excited because I so rarely have the opportunity to perform for ME clients. I was nattering on about Assaya if they were Egyptian, a rollicking 9/8 if they were Turkish, and hey, everyone loves a good debke even though the steps vary somewhat from locality to locality. And then I realized there was nothing but silence on the other end of the phone...

The overall impression I got from her was that, like a lot of the GP, she kind of thought that Middle Easterners were one big homogeneous group who all speak the same language and listen to the same music. Heck, I used to think that! So it was nice to be able to share the information, and she was really appreciative.

[maurazebra]

Our conservative Christian city also has a large population of Mid-Eastern and Indian immigrants, many of whom are well educated, cosmopolitan and earning good money - the type of people who are willing to throw a party and hire entertainment. The calls we get are from customers who require both the traditional and non-traditional dancing. The traditional dancing really does have to reflect some cultural awareness; fortunately there is a cosmopolitan, well-educated Egyptian dancer 100 miles away and a cosmopolitan, well-educated Indian dancer in town, both expert in many genres and providing miraculous educational intervention via private lessons. There is no way that we could hope to please this market without these excellent teacher resources. As far as non-traditional goes, these customers enjoy almost everything, including tribal... as long as the dancer also passes the magic-cultural-circle test.

[caroline_afifi]

A guy came to our youth centre a few days ago to teach a group of special needs young people some drumming.

The guy was a local lad from Liverpool.

He brought African drums with him but did not let the young people just bang on them like an old pan.

He showed them technique, the different beats, the area of Africa, how they were made, the culture of the people and the significance of the drumming etc... this is exactly what I would expect from a Professional artist who was being paid for what they were doing.

Why do we treat this dance any different from any other artistic proffession?

How can we say its too big, too vague, too complicated?

Can you imagine if the guy showed up and the yong people asked ''where in Africa do the drums come from?" and he replied.. well Africa is a big place, there are lots of drums in Africa, if you hit any drum then this is African drumming because the drum is from Africa.

Crikey.

[ssipes]

Originally Posted by toria_dances

ok ok ok ATS is total unauthentic

I think Toria is asking relevant questions about tassels being human vs. animal decorations. I have seen photographs of North African dancers with different kinds of tassels worn on long strings around their hips. The dancers that are on the cover of the book "A trade like any other" have tassels like this. I'm pretty sure the Banat Mazin have at one time worn some kind of tassels at the hip.

I think that the "tassels are only worn on animals" statement began with something Morocco said about a very specific item that is/was popular with ATS dancers:



This is an item used to decorate camels. Morocco criticised the wearing of these rather vocally on the MED list back in the 1990s. Or rather, she pointed out how ridiculous and disgusting wearing camel tassels would look to Arabs.

Granted, I am fairly ignorant about the parameters of North African camel fashion, but I just wonder if extrapolating these criticisms to any/all tassels sort of misses the mark -- not to mention Morocco's original point.

[caroline_afifi]

There are some tassels on Abayas and Galabiyas but these tassels are totally different from those adorning animals.

Perhaps Morocco was refferring to those which were specifically designed to decorate the animals rather than tassels per se?

these are the type you generally see in the form of belts etc.

[Azhia]

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Yes, that was the original question. I wonder where people are who do and where people are who don't and if they see it as effecting their marketability. I was wondering if work is effected in different regions by cultural knowledge beyond dance/musicality knowledge "oh, this is a saidi beat, I'll throw in a few saidi steps."
I'm learning the language, I study a lot of cultural aspects *related to* dance, music, clothing, how people live, how people interact, social values etc.
I've always had a deep interest in cultures though, so it makes sense for me. It also has helped me a lot in my dance work, so it makes sense for me professionally. Not all markets are the same, so I figured I'd ask.

I have a deep interest in cultures, too. I learn foreign languages quickly and thrive on living in foreign countries. I've just never had a desire to immerse myself in Arab culture. And I don't think that prohibited me from performing it well or barred me from getting hired (when I was still performing).

The bulk of my experiences was while I lived in Philadelphia. Here in Montreal, it's quite different. So perhaps it does vary regionally, based on what Arab communities populate a given locale. I can't speak to that specifically.

Also, who's doing the hiring? Sometimes Arab-oriented events and sponsors/clients want to see something different. I don't think I have exhibited anything irreverent but I've never had complaints about tattoos showing or whatnot, in either Oriental or Occidental environments.

[LiesaB.]

Originally Posted by laura 2

Thanks! We do have several dancers locally who likely would have known and shared the same information, but it was nice to be on the receiving end all the same. I honestly wasn't trying to show off to her, I just got excited because I so rarely have the opportunity to perform for ME clients. I was nattering on about Assaya if they were Egyptian, a rollicking 9/8 if they were Turkish, and hey, everyone loves a good debke even though the steps vary somewhat from locality to locality. And then I realized there was nothing but silence on the other end of the phone...

The overall impression I got from her was that, like a lot of the GP, she kind of thought that Middle Easterners were one big homogeneous group who all speak the same language and listen to the same music. Heck, I used to think that! So it was nice to be able to share the information, and she was really appreciative.

Doesn't that feel great! Yay to you!

[*Shira*]

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Perhaps Morocco was refferring to those which were specifically designed to decorate the animals rather than tassels per se?

Yes, Morocco was referring to a specific type of tassel:

[zumarrad]

Many people have acknowledged in this thread that tassels are worn in clothing in various places in North Africa, but not the same kind or in the same way as ATS belts, and yet it's become some kind of groundhog day loop where people keep insisting "but there are tassels in this picture!!!!" and yet another person comes in and reiterates that there are human tassels and camel tassels. Nobody has said no humans wear tassels. Why is this proving so difficult to convey?

[toria_dances]

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Many people have acknowledged in this thread that tassels are worn in clothing in various places in North Africa, but not the same kind or in the same way as ATS belts, and yet it's become some kind of groundhog day loop where people keep insisting "but there are tassels in this picture!!!!" and yet another person comes in and reiterates that there are human tassels and camel tassels. Nobody has said no humans wear tassels. Why is this proving so difficult to convey?

I just don't see the difference in human tassels vs animal tassels. A tassel is a tassel to me. One person said they are fluffyer or bigger. But the picture Shira posted is of small people tassels seen on many Moroccan belts. My point is how much can you nip pick a tassel?

[zumarrad]

OK, let me try to put this simply. Someone upthread, I can't remember who, said ATS tassels were animal tassels and therefore inauthentic. I and numerous others said, repeatedly, it was a little more complex than that because there are many instances of people wearing tasselled garments traditionally in the ME, but the way they're worn and the kind are a bit different to the ones you get on a camel. And thus it went on and on with numerous pictures of random people wearing tassels and people saying 'yes people sometimes wear tassels but ATS tassels are quite distinct.'

Put it this way. You know a person can wear a cocktail dress with some elegant high heeled shoes, right? Now, if someone puts on a cocktail dress and matches it with a pair of muddy football boots or some huge puffy sneakers, it's going to look kind of out of place, right? And you might laugh at that person's style choice if they are at the Oscars or the opera or something else very formal.

But they're all shoes.

[caroline_afifi]

do you understand the difference between a dog collar and one a vicar wears?

People in bondage suits wear items designed specifially for animals.