cultural understanding and professional level dancers....

[kharis_UK]

this looks pretty ATS to me. I have to say the horse wears it extremely well... very Faux Fat Chance.

[steffib]

Can we move back on topic?

Speaking as somebody who loves group-improv tribal: A good ITS/ATS dancer is not ignorant and works very hard to understand where that dance form fits in, where it comes from and what it is (and is not). A good ITS/ATS dancer is aware of the discussion about tassels and its implications.

Judging ITS/ATS by those who care to do their homework is just like judging oriental by the gals who dance for free in an ill-fitting airport special. Neither is a well-rounded professional-level dancer.

[zumarrad]

Exactly. Groundhog Tassel Day is not getting this discussion anywhere.

I think groups like Urban Tribal, who've dropped the moniker Belly Dance from their name, no longer appear to do anything related to BD from the clips I've seen, though you can sort of see hints o' tribal still in the formations and the way they work together. I'm starting to wonder if the issue re tribal fusion/world fusion/whatever we want to call it vs "belly dance" is an element of cake and eat it too. Many dancers on the tribal trail want to extend into dances that have little or nothing to do with BD,and that is totally fine. But they also want the chance to do belly dance as well. There seems to be an emerging trend among tribal-trained dancers towards an interest in - GASP - oriental dance, or at least a chance to wear a shiny twopiece if nothing else. I have seen some pretty crappy so-called oriental dance from tribal troupes, but I am certain that in the US anyway, where getting access to teaching is so much easier, there's better oriental-inspired dance being done.

It seems that tribal fusion troupes may sometimes want to cling simultaneously to the cachet of being "tribal", with the "alternativeness" that still implies (despite tribal being exceptionally mainstream now) and the very particular technique, *and* to the moniker "belly dance" so they can remain part of the belly dance community, perform at belly dance events and attract students interested in belly dance.

They want to lock and pop to gothic industrial *and* get their karsilama on to vintage oriental music, and that is really fine. If it turns out that the latest trend in tribal is Cab Uh Ray or orientale, then perhaps finally the separatism will start breaking down as participants realise that the people who they can learn these skills from, and those who perform so well, are non-tribal dancers, and what they're doing isn't tribal per se. And that tribal was based on Cab Uh Ray all along.

[aziyade]

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I think groups like Urban Tribal, who've dropped the moniker Belly Dance from their name, no longer appear to do anything related to BD from the clips I've seen, though you can sort of see hints o' tribal still in the formations and the way they work together.

I was watching LA Tribal, or whatever the recent BDSS dvd is called, and one of the first performers was Urban Tribal. My husband, who wasn't paying attention when I started the dvd, said "What's with the Lester Horton troupe?" I told him it was BDSS, which he refused to believe until I showed him the dvd cover, whereupon he asked "So this is tribal because they're a group?"

???

I didn't know what to tell him. I can't figure it out for myself either. They're lovely dancers, but I had flashbacks of modern dance class watching them.

I'm starting to wonder if the issue re tribal fusion/world fusion/whatever we want to call it vs "belly dance" is an element of cake and eat it too. Many dancers on the tribal trail want to extend into dances that have little or nothing to do with BD,and that is totally fine. But they also want the chance to do belly dance as well.

Because there is no adequate venue for "fusion" or experimental dance, they want to maintain the link to "belly dance" because of the performance opportunities that phrase opens up.

Tribal and Tribal Fusion have no business in cultural festivals or ethnic fairs (my firm opinion, flame away) and I don't know THAT many restaurants where ATS garb is encouraged (although I did see one in North Carolina a few years ago.)

I've said before we ARE NOT doing Far-Flung-Fusion dance any favors by trying to make it fit the belly dance aesthetic and description. I want to find a place for my Fusion -- where I won't feel limited by trying to stuff my round pegs into the square holes of "belly dance."

It seems that tribal fusion troupes may sometimes want to cling simultaneously to the cachet of being "tribal", with the "alternativeness" that still implies (despite tribal being exceptionally mainstream now) and the very particular technique, *and* to the moniker "belly dance" so they can remain part of the belly dance community, perform at belly dance events and attract students interested in belly dance.

Right -- and so they can perform on BDSS dvds, it seems.

[aziyade]

I know around here that all people expect is a cute butt in a 2-piece costume. I'm not happy about that, but I'm aware of it.

Every now and then I'll do a performance and a guest or a crowd member will come up to me and say something about home. Or I'll get the "you mean you're not Greek/Egyptian/Lebanese/etc -- you're just an American?"

My personal belief is that we are doing an ethnic dance and we need to at the very least acknowledge that when we perform "belly dance." If I'm advertised as "break dancing" or anything else, the criteria is different. But when I put on the "belly dancer" costume, I'm going to try my darnedest to be THE best possible representative -- a woman Sohair Zaki would have lunch with and approve of.

And every now and again, I'll get the "Oh I thought you were another Arab" and it makes all the struggle and all the frustration worth it.

[Nouria]

Even though you don't want to discuss whether tassel is for humans or for animals: it does show how far one's knowledge of Arab audiences in the area goes to know why they don't want to see tassels, so the question is ok in this thread, isn't it?
I would guess that generally tassels would signal: I'm not wearing my best (i.e. glamourous glitz) for you but rather the coarser stuff - rather than: I like wearing horses stuff like reins, saddles, tassels thus making fun of bellydance.
That is my guess, based on articles saying that - very generally speaking, the Arab audiences expect maximum glamour from their dancers.