Dancers and weight - NYT article

[CFerhat]

Hi all,
Thought this was worth sharing.
Christine

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/20/ar...html?ref=dance

[ChristinaRizkallah]

That is an interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

Well, its true that in belly dance we are a lot more open regarding a woman's body, size and age. So this is a plus for bellydancers! Not that there aren't areas in belly dance where "less than perfect bodies" would get scrutinized, but for the most part, the GP in belly dance performances are more welcoming and open and accepting of a woman's size, body type and age and even appearance. The article did have a point when it said that for the most part, society is still interested in seeing beautiful and thin dancers on stage. But they were talking about forms of dance that are less forgiving and embracing than belly dance.

[Lauren_]

wow. I feel kinda nauseous after reading that.

[tahiradancer]

i went through a lot if this when I was younger. one of the reasons I danced character roles - the wicked step mother, Qypsy Queen - was because I wasn't teeny - tiny. Didnt' mena I couldn't dance, jsut that I wasnt' a fit for the chorus or the leads.

It was fun, though. And Character dancers tend to have longer careers.

That having been said, I agree that this is an issue in the overall dance industry. Nice to know that there are some choreographers who are changing that!

{{{HUGS}}}

[tigerb]

Oddly enough, I was just reading an article yesterday about a woman who is a personal trainer and Jazzercise teacher. She's a bigger person, but she's very fit. She went through the Jazzercise teacher training, passed all their tests... and they told her they required "a fit appearance" to teach Jazzercise! She took them to court over it... and guess what, they don't require that anymore!

I am a big person. I'd like to think that I'm a pretty good dancer. Moves may not look the same on me as on thinner dancers, but I'm still executing them. Audiences will not respond to me in the same way, but I am not a professional dancer, so I am not losing income by our national obsession with perfect looks.

[stardancer]

ok, this probably won't be too popular but I totally agree with this statement from the article. “I think for the most part, in all the performing arts, paying customers want to look at beautiful people, people more beautiful than us.” For me personally this is true regarding belly dance as well. I see enough reality of peoples physiques walking down the street every day. I want to see more fantasy when watching a performance. Not to say i can't enjoy a performance by someone who does not have a svelte appearance, I just enjoy it more when the person fits the image in my head. I have found the general public to feel the same way. I've had many conversations with people about it and very few have expressed an open mindedness to accepting other body types. It is sad that things are that way! Someone told me once that people plant flowers because they are pretty to look at, they don't plant weeds.....

[Monica]

Really interesting article, thanks for sharing the link.

I found this interesting (from a critic, Mills, reviewing a performance that included dancers with a variety of body types):
"Mr. Mills saw “old-fashioned shock-the-bourgeoisie” tactics at work."

It is fascinating to me that a plus size dancer in a mainstream/professional production would be seen as so radical that it is a political statement rather than the best wo/man for the job, or taken at his/her own artistic and expressive merit.

M.

--- --- ---
P.S. Christine, loved meeting you, albeit briefly, in Dallas last week!

[stardancer]

Originally Posted by tigerb

She went through the Jazzercise teacher training, passed all their tests... and they told her they required "a fit appearance" to teach Jazzercise!

From the gym's standpoint I suppose I could understand their thinking as disappointing as it is. It would probably be harder for some students to envision that the class is going to make them skinny minnies if the instructor is a larger person. Fit or not. I'm sure many women take the class for weight loss and appearance , not to improve their heart health. I know when I am teaching dance classes women see me as an inspiration as to what they could achieve. (Personally I could care less about the instructors appearance as long as I am getting a good workout.)

[CFerhat]

Hey Monica - me too - smooch!
I liked this line:
But contemporary dancers are also held to rigid physical standards, which generally have little to do with ability or health, let alone art.

[jawahir]

please don't take this the wrong way. but don't the larger dancers post pictures in their profiles? let's face it belly dance IS about image, whether you are large or small. people want to see what you look like

aleedra of seattle is a great example of a full figured healthy women who can put on an amazing performance: http://www.aleedra.com

also basimah dalal is another incredible full figured dancer: http://www.basimahdalal.com

these ladies are so inspirational, and there are hundreds of others out there like them. i hope some of you decide to post some pictures of yourself

[zumarrad]

. She went through the Jazzercise teacher training, passed all their tests... and they told her they required "a fit appearance" to teach Jazzercise! She took them to court over it... and guess what, they don't require that anymore!

I had a colleague who is sports-mad, who trained as a spin instructor, who had the same thing happen (though not the court part). This girl has a great figure actually - she wasn't as small as she had been when I first met her, but she was still hardly anybody's idea of large. She looks athletic, as in "like a female athlete" - that is to say, not pretty-pretty, but lean, trim and obviously well-muscled under a tiny layer of fat. When they suggested she might like to lose a little weight as a trainer, she pretty much went "I don't think so pal". She was working out like a demon daily and eating very well. She was at an optimal weight. I'm pretty sure they never pushed the issue.

[Kimahri]

Originally Posted by stardancer

From the gym's standpoint I suppose I could understand their thinking as disappointing as it is. It would probably be harder for some students to envision that the class is going to make them skinny minnies if the instructor is a larger person. Fit or not. I'm sure many women take the class for weight loss and appearance , not to improve their heart health. I know when I am teaching dance classes women see me as an inspiration as to what they could achieve. (Personally I could care less about the instructors appearance as long as I am getting a good workout.)

On the flip side (former fitness instructor here) there are definitely women who find it reassuring and are more comfortable joining a class where the instructor is not super thin.

~~Kimahri

[Nisima]

Originally Posted by Lauren_

wow. I feel kinda nauseous after reading that.

Me too! Actually kinda peeved that it seems so controversial to have dancers who more correctly represent concept of show - what else could the guy have done - stuff pillows in ballerina's leotards? (OT: giggles at word "pillows" after Fifi weekend and great to finally meet you Lauren in Dallas and yoohoo, Monica!!!! ).

Well, as far as scrawny ballerinas, we have Balanchine to thank for the super-thin requirements he had for his dancers! In Europe the ballerinas look a bit more like women!

And that's all I have to say about that!

[BabsGrrrl]

Okay, so I was going to wait until I had a more professional photo taken, but since Jawahir asked so nicely...


This was at a hafla a while ago, I am the one on the far left in the second row! (I hope this posts. This is my first attempt at this!!!)

[tahiradancer]

http://photos.yahoo.com/tahiradancer

Those would be me. . .

I cant' figure out how to resize them to post them. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

[Taj]

Originally Posted by stardancer

ok, this probably won't be too popular but I totally agree with this statement from the article. “I think for the most part, in all the performing arts, paying customers want to look at beautiful people, people more beautiful than us.” For me personally this is true regarding belly dance as well. I see enough reality of peoples physiques walking down the street every day. I want to see more fantasy when watching a performance. Not to say i can't enjoy a performance by someone who does not have a svelte appearance, I just enjoy it more when the person fits the image in my head. I have found the general public to feel the same way. I've had many conversations with people about it and very few have expressed an open mindedness to accepting other body types. It is sad that things are that way! Someone told me once that people plant flowers because they are pretty to look at, they don't plant weeds.....

Well, I guess it all depends on your idea of beauty, doesn't it? I've been utterly mesmerized by plus-sized dancers who bring passion and artistry to their movement, and I don't feel at all cheated that I'm looking at "the reality of peoples physiques walking down the street."

A good dancer is a good dancer, and hang her "physique".

[stardancer]

I agree that it totally depends on your idea of beauty. At one time fleshier women were considered the beauty standard and the skinny minnies were frowned upon. I wonder how we shifted from one extreme to the other. Also, how does it vary so much from one culture to another?

[mehndidancer]

Well I am a size 12 and i used to be a size 3 and when i was a size 3 people would ask me am i anorexic do i eat enough? Now when i went to my 20th high school reunion a couple weeks back. as a size 12. They said i looked good and i was too skinny in high school. But I know what kind of clothes and even costumes what NOT to wear.Would i want to go back to a size 3 no, a size 8 or 10 yes i'm realistic in my goals. But when i'm ready not when society tells me to.

Alrana

[zumarrad]

I've been utterly mesmerized by plus-sized dancers who bring passion and artistry to their movement, and I don't feel at all cheated that I'm looking at "the reality of peoples physiques walking down the street."

I think that's actually what brings a lot of people to belly dancing in the first place - seeing somebody dancing sensually who looks like a real person, an older person, a fat person. Somebody they could aspire to be! The very first belly dance lessons I had were in the 80s when I was about 15 to 20 years younger than the other women in the class. It didn't really *stick* at that point, but I remember going to a hafla and being so impressed that all these "old" "housewives" were getting their stretched post-baby bellies out and wearing bedleh and putting on performances for their husbands. Then, when I went to the show that my friend asked me to come to prior to starting lessons together, I particularly remember noticing some of the dancers who were really large and how confident and beautiful they looked in their colourful costumes. Without really knowing about the dance, I think what you see is the pretty lady in the pretty costume, and it's exciting to see that there is one who could be like you.

At one time fleshier women were considered the beauty standard and the skinny minnies were frowned upon. I wonder how we shifted from one extreme to the other.

Industrialisation, I'm guessing. As food got cheaper and more plentiful, and working people did less physical labour outside and more pushing of buttons/pens inside, the marker of a privileged individual ceased to be fleshiness and pallor and became leanness and brownness.

Today I would guarantee that in developed countries a genuinely fat rich person is a rare sight, whereas an obese person is really much more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic group. When big bottles of Coke are cheap and little bottles of water are really expensive, what are you going to buy?

[Bellydancingcaroline]

Originally Posted by stardancer

ok, this probably won't be too popular ....Someone told me once that people plant flowers because they are pretty to look at, they don't plant weeds.....

Yeah, but the thing is that people who are a size 12 are deemed plus size. Is that a bit strange? When I go and see the ballet the dancers look like size 2 or size 0 and I always think that all those catching and jumping moves must hurt as their skeletons are sticking out of their skin.

I must admit to liking it when you get a 'rib tastic shot' of a super thin bellydancer , as it makes me feel a bit better for having some flesh on me.

[gwyncara]

Originally Posted by Kimahri

On the flip side (former fitness instructor here) there are definitely women who find it reassuring and are more comfortable joining a class where the instructor is not super thin.

~~Kimahri

This is the absolute truth!! I am a Jazzercise Instructor and this is exactly what my students have told me they like about having me as an instructor. Most of them hate going to the gym because they feel intimidated by all the "skinny" people. When they come to my class, they know that "real" peopl