New Costume, part trois...

[mish_mish]

Zorba, I have a different take after thinking a lot about your last reply. Regardless of gender, there are just certain professional standards for costumes and wearing things that are flattering for your body type.

I feel like I should approach this the same way I might approach any other bhuzzer who posts a photo of themselves in a costume that I think needs work. My gut feeling is that the costume above still doesn't quite have the professional level feel to it. Any time you have a hipwrap with coins or fringe, it looks like class attire rather than professional costuming to me. Granted, this is really nice class attire, but it just doesn't rise to the professional performance standard of costuming.

You know I take issue with the idea of "genderlessness"--the idea doesn't appeal to me at all--but taking the gender discussion out, you may want to consider how to continue to tighten up your look. As I mentioned earlier, the color scheme has improved a lot, now I think it's time to focus on a really glittery adornment for your hips.

Maybe others have ideas. I will definitely think about it.

[danidance]

Mish - bingo - I've been thinking about this lately because it seems that so many people just have no idea and have no one to be honest with them about their costuming. We all need some powerfully honest people who can give us opinions that we will respect and who also have really good taste. It doesn't do any good to ask people who don't dress themselves well of course.

Just because the community is more accepting of a wider range of body types doesn't mean we all look good with bare midriffs, or that it's always a good idea (see thread on wedding/cultural protocol). Personally, my gut sure doesn't look good bare, and I'd be hard pressed to get out there in bedlah until the poundage comes off. And, the good thing is as we've said on another thread - it's not a bare belly that "makes you a bellydancer" nor is it all the gizmos.

[antimony]

I definitely think a woman would get the same kind of responses if she came on Bhuz saying she was planning to go pro but thought cosmetics were a tool of the patriarchy and was not going to wear makeup to gigs.

This has come up a lot on Bhuz, but I think we all need to remember that the "bellydance world" of haflas and bellydance audiences is completely separate from the "showbusiness world" of being a working pro.

[zorba]

Originally Posted by mihnea

Women may have more leeway than men though, I understand that. Also, your talk of a men's liberation movement, are there so many men that are unhappy about mens roll that they would even want a liberation?

Probably not (in reference to men wanting a liberation). But there are those of us who do - and I for one think the world would be a MUCH better place for it. I believe in balance and/or "middle of the road" - androgyny is an ideal in my mind. Only by men embracing what is generally called the "feminine", AND by women embracing what is generally called the "masculine" (which women in general do much better than "men in reverse") can either gender realize their full potential. A man who is only "masculine" is only half a man. Etc., etc., blah, blah.

[zorba]

Originally Posted by mish_mish

I feel like I should approach this the same way I might approach any other bhuzzer who posts a photo of themselves in a costume that I think needs work. My gut feeling is that the costume above still doesn't quite have the professional level feel to it. Any time you have a hipwrap with coins or fringe, it looks like class attire rather than professional costuming to me. Granted, this is really nice class attire, but it just doesn't rise to the professional performance standard of costuming.

You know I take issue with the idea of "genderlessness"--the idea doesn't appeal to me at all--but taking the gender discussion out, you may want to consider how to continue to tighten up your look. As I mentioned earlier, the color scheme has improved a lot, now I think it's time to focus on a really glittery adornment for your hips.

Now you're talking. I really need to get a better picture so you can see my hipwrap better - that veil is covering up the whole thing. I will add that most Belly Dancers in my area dress similarly - for whatever that's worth!

I'll get someone to snap a couple of posed shots next time I wear this particular costume (and start another thread) rather than depending on the random shot like this one is.

And do let me say that I always appreciate feedback and discussion, I'm always willing to discuss things like this as I enjoy well-reasoned opinions that differ from mine - it helps me understand MYSELF better and helps me mold my worldview. You gals are tops in my book!

[zorba]

Originally Posted by antimony

I definitely think a woman would get the same kind of responses if she came on Bhuz saying she was planning to go pro but thought cosmetics were a tool of the patriarchy and was not going to wear makeup to gigs.

But do keep in mind that some gals look better and/or just fine without makeup. This said, I think guys in general need way more! My wife and I had a bit of a disagreement over my wearing (light) makeup to our daughter's wedding. I told her that there would be tons of pictures taken, wouldn't she want me to look my best?

She relented, and the results were obvious to everyone, including her - I looked SO much better in the pictures than I otherwise would have!

[heinakuu]

I dream of a situation where you Zorba and Khaled Mahmoud could sit down together with me and talk. This discussion here is about the same we went through with Khaled (he is not either a T-shirt dancer) because he wants the audience to see his belly. Look at his pictures at the his Fan Club, he prefers tops even though everybody talks about that lately because you can see he is getting some fat now. I have asked him why he does not do like Tito, take the galabeija because everybody likes it on him. But no, he stays as he is, dancing the feminine style in the designs is the dance he prefers. It is hard for him, and even harder when he has now started doing also khaleegy which is even more feminine-looking. we also started the discussion about make-up but had to stop because it was about 4am then, but you see, I enjoy reading your posts very much because of this, I see the same strong opinions on both of you.

So, as an dancer and entertainer you are the one who chooses what to dance and what to wear. In the audience they can also stay or leave, so just allow that to happen and carry no pain about it, concentrate on those who did stay. I consider that decision to be what you are more important than any of the standards, we and the world will always renew them.

ps. personally, I would also prefer Tito in bra and pants instead of galabeija... But i also like Randa's very tiny outfits, so it's what I prefer and what "my" standards ask when I want to see belly dance.

[antimony]

Originally Posted by zorba

Now you're talking. I really need to get a better picture so you can see my hipwrap better - that veil is covering up the whole thing. I will add that most Belly Dancers in my area dress similarly - for whatever that's worth!

You said in your website thread that you were updating your site with the intention of starting to do some pro work. I strongly suspect that the dancers in your area are not wearing hip scarves for pro gigs. They're probably not out there in designer Egyptian costumes for uncle Fred's 90th birthday, but they are more than likely out there in bedlah and a matching skirt and veil. Part of what makes a pro cabaret costume look pro is the fact that all of the pieces coordinate, are made with the same fabric, etc.

If you are more interested in a collection-of-interesting-pieces look, have you thought about going for something more tribal?

Originally Posted by zorba

But do keep in mind that some gals look better and/or just fine without makeup.

I look fine without makeup in my daily life. But part of putting on a costume is putting on the face. Uncle Fred's grandkids would be disapointed if the dancer they hired showed up in neck-to-toe sequins and an un-made-up face, regargless of how pretty she was. It's part of the costume.

[zorba]

Originally Posted by antimony

You said in your website thread that you were updating your site with the intention of starting to do some pro work. I strongly suspect that the dancers in your area are not wearing hip scarves for pro gigs. They're probably not out there in designer Egyptian costumes for uncle Fred's 90th birthday, but they are more than likely out there in bedlah and a matching skirt and veil. Part of what makes a pro cabaret costume look pro is the fact that all of the pieces coordinate, are made with the same fabric, etc.

I'm trying, I'm trying...

And I do agree with you about the makeup - why do you think I wear the stuff?

[zorba]

Originally Posted by heinakuu

ps. personally, I would also prefer Tito in bra and pants instead of galabeija... But i also like Randa's very tiny outfits, so it's what I prefer and what "my" standards ask when I want to see belly dance.

Thanx for your kind comments - but why would you want Tito in a bra? Does he have breasts?

[zorba]

Originally Posted by heinakuu

I have asked him why he does not do like Tito, take the galabeija because everybody likes it on him. But no, he stays as he is, dancing the feminine style in the designs is the dance he prefers. It is hard for him, and even harder when he has now started doing also khaleegy which is even more feminine-looking. we also started the discussion about make-up but had to stop because it was about 4am then, but you see, I enjoy reading your posts very much because of this, I see the same strong opinions on both of you.

While I do not consider myself "feminine" (as I'm not a woman for better or worse), I do grok where the guy is coming from. Good on him!

[mahsati]

Originally Posted by zorba

Probably not (in reference to men wanting a liberation). But there are those of us who do - and I for one think the world would be a MUCH better place for it. I believe in balance and/or "middle of the road" - androgyny is an ideal in my mind. Only by men embracing what is generally called the "feminine", AND by women embracing what is generally called the "masculine" (which women in general do much better than "men in reverse") can either gender realize their full potential. A man who is only "masculine" is only half a man. Etc., etc., blah, blah.

Ok - totally off-topic, but I don't think it is necessary or even desirable that everyone see androgyny as an ideal. I also believe in balance, but balance doesn't require an unnatural leveling of characteristics. For those who naturally prefer androgyny, it is a balanced state. For those who naturally prefer a more gendered existence, that is a balanced state for them. I honestly see the gendered-nature of things as a wonderful spectrum that allows for diverse presentations for different people, whether they prefer a specific construct like masculine/feminine/androgynous or a less constructed view taking what feels best to them from all available categories.

On the liberation front, those with less power are expected to idolize and pursue the trappings of those with more power - thus the requirements for professional women to often adapt the mannerisms and clothing traditionally seen as masculine. However, it is unusual for members of the group with more social power to emulate the actions and habits of the less powerful. That is one of the main reason why there was a women's liberation movement, but there is less demand for such from men.

/academic and personal opinion off

Sorry to threadjack this bit - it just seemed important to note.

[zorba]

Originally Posted by mahsati

On the liberation front, those with less power are expected to idolize and pursue the trappings of those with more power - thus the requirements for professional women to often adapt the mannerisms and clothing traditionally seen as masculine. However, it is unusual for members of the group with more social power to emulate the actions and habits of the less powerful. That is one of the main reason why there was a women's liberation movement, but there is less demand for such from men.

Oh yea! Big time! I note this in my website articles. Absolutely.

And no, I agree with you that its not necessary for everyone to see androgyny as an ideal. All my crazy ideas are what applies to *me*, and me only. Others may adopt, or ignore, them as they please.

Or to put it another way - only I can be me, and only you can be you, so why would I try to be you, and why would you try to be me?

[mahsati]

Originally Posted by zorba

Or to put it another way - only I can be me, and only you can be you, so why would I try to be you, and why would you try to be me?

Exactly! Thank heavens I don't have to try to be anyone else - that would be too crazy

[BabsGrrrl]

Originally Posted by zorba

Or to put it another way - only I can be me, and only you can be you, so why would I try to be you, and why would you try to be me?

Very true - I certainly couldn't pull off the beard like you can.

[bellydancerinfo]

I am just looking at the design on your body and thinking up ideas for your next costume.

The neck line does nothing for you. You are not showcasing well developed pectoral muscles or big fancy tribal neckwear. The black actually minimizes the size of your chest. The top shoulder fabric looks narrow for you.

The shoulder of the sleeve looks small and fitted (opposed to having some volume to it). The sleeve then gains volume to create the 3/4th length puff. I think this makes your arms look short and draws attention to your arms and hands being thick.

In contrast to your narrowed upper body, your pale white stomach sticks out much larger than your upper body and hips. Therefore the main focus on this costume is pointing out that you are less healthy than what a doctor would recommend.

I think the flared pants are great. The mermaid aspect gives a great shape. Putting the colored flair on it is great. Using color is very important aspect of drawing people’s attention. Good work.

Recommendations
Arms: I would try other sleeves that make your arms look elongated.
Here is a sleeve of mine that has some volume to the shoulder and continues to the wrist. It is not as full as some sleeves, keeping a slimming look to the arm.
http://www.shakemyday.com/photos/costumes/c05.jpg

Neckline: I would make the neck line narrower as to not point out the fact that your pecs are not defined. There are some really wonderful neckline designs in folkloric dress with exquisite embroidery that will bring interest to your neck line and create visual volume.

Belly: You are stating clearly you are not interested in fully covering it. That being said- I have seen some amazing tribal and Indian designs that bring shapes down from the top on to the belly which breaks up the strait line across- so that it isn’t just a big white belly mass. Off hand I cant find a photo of those- but here are some other smaller belly drapes that break up the strait line and you could modify it to suit your proportions:
"Birds of Prey: Bellydancer" “Gothic Bellydance” posters
http://www.bellydanceposters.com/

You could mirror the vshaped neckline and a vshaped belly drape and vshaped belt, vshapes in your wide legged pants- which would make a very slimming visual line.

It is about what creates the most flattering body lines.
I look forward to seeing what creative inspiration you come up with next!

[Sashy]

<ps. personally, I would also prefer Tito in bra and pants instead of galabeija>

[Sashy]

Originally Posted by zorba

Thanx for your kind comments - but why would you want Tito in a bra? Does he have breasts?

ROFL