Er... Under-dressed?

bellydancerinfo · 05-02-2007, 08:57 AM

1) if this was a girl- yall would roast the person. Because he is a guy - that some of you know- totally getting off easy.

2) Personally I wish the hip scarf DID fall off

mish_mish · 05-02-2007, 08:59 AM

I know he'd be roasted. You're right--he kind of is getting roasted by Dani!

laura 2 · 05-02-2007, 09:17 AM

As a Milwaukee dancer, I know Kish Kish quite well. As Chessurecat pointed out, when he performs at shows and haflas, his attire is definately more conservative that in the linked clip. His YouTube persona is much different than you would see if you met him in person. I think the relative "anonymity" of the internet brings out his crazy exhibitionist side.

Kish Kish was born and raised in Jordan, and continues to further his dance education by taking workshops and classes. He has such great musicaility and emotion when he dances. I think his talent is belied by some of his YouTube clips, but he's chosen to put them out there, the cheeky monkey! I kind of think of Kish Kish and Shaymis as two totally different people sometimes.

danidance · 05-02-2007, 09:23 AM

Sarah - glad someone is agreeing with me!

If I was to show my "cheeky side," (and I mean that quite literally) like all the burlesque and more risque costumed dancers out there who've been taken to task for combining burly with BD, as a female bellydancer there'd be all kinds of hell to pay.

If men are striving for parity in the BD world, then ante up, respect the issues that women are dealing with as well in making belly dance something more than boudoir cheesecake.

His clips are no different to me than the countless young girls that have been posted on bhuz who are just "wiggling around the bedroom" for attention. YouTube is the MOST public and the MOST general public accessible "stage."

I'm still saying: ZILL BRIGADE - round the clock, not just at 3 a.m.

Ainsley · 05-02-2007, 11:00 AM

You think that's underdressed? Try this one on for size:

(ETA: He's clearly naked in this one, though you don't actually see... er... everything. So, sensitive users beware.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79BKJ499K14

Ew.

I agree with you 100%, Dani. Inappropriately underdressed dancers give people a bad impression of our dance, no matter their gender.

I don't find this sexy at all. I'm offended when men drool over half-dressed, underage girls undulating around their bedrooms, and I don't think a turnabout-is-fair-play attitude is the answer. People attempt to sexually objectify men as a response to the sexual objectification of women -- why can't we hold everyone to a higher standard rather than imitate what we consider sexist behaviour in others?

urbana · 05-02-2007, 11:45 AM

From Battle Star Gallactica!

bellydancerinfo · 05-02-2007, 01:05 PM

Well, I didnt give a thumbs up or down- I am just making commentary on the reactions to it- that there IS a double standard. absolutely. And what you put up on a public forum impacts the rest of what you do.

But I think as I get older (yesterday was my birthday so I feel all sage today) I am getting looser. I dont care what others are doing. He can post whatever he wants and it makes absolutely no impact on my life. I can choose NOT to watch it. I would rather go watch something that I thought was inspiring.

My old prudish ideas are becoming less important to me and I am enjoying a more generous mind to things. I think people should wear what they feel gives them the most benifit. He has suddenly gotten a huge group of people to see his dancing and discuss it- and maybe a date to boot!

(I still think it would have been a much more interesting video if the hip sash fell off- keep me posted)

Surida · 05-02-2007, 01:13 PM

I completely agree with Sarah - we each lead the lives we choose. Live and let live.

I recently read something to the effect of:

When we judge another person the only thing we prove is that we are a person who needs to judge.

chessurecat · 05-02-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellydancerinfo

But I think as I get older (yesterday was my birthday so I feel all sage today) I am getting looser. I dont care what others are doing. He can post whatever he wants and it makes absolutely no impact on my life. I can choose NOT to watch it.

I also agreee with Sarah.
Just for the record, I am not biased because I 'know' him, nor am I pushing double standards. If this were a woman, I couldn't care less. I too, don't care what others do...I don't need to watch it if that's what I choose. As for the issues that women 'deal' with within bellydancing, really, the majority of us a American or do live in free countries....there are lots of worse things out there for us 'women to suffer'....a dancing man will not set us back any. We are only victims of what we subject ourselves to.
It really urks me how women squabble over our 'rights' and what-not...bellydancers get the same slack from jane-shmoo as strippers get from bellydancers. None of us are quite seen as 'norm' yet we sure can sit there and bash each other...when we share the same passion...yish...

danidance · 05-02-2007, 03:26 PM

"When we judge another person the only thing we prove is that we are a person who needs to judge."

There is no judgement involved of him as a person. He can be the most fantastic person in the world - I don't know and I don't care - I'm seeing him on a youtube clip presenting as a belly dancer, something I do care about.

What's relevant is what kind of behavior reflects well on belly dance IF generally people get pissed off about being treated like or considered as strippers or worse if they take up BD.

I'm making no moral or ethical evaluation on this guy - I'm saying that a) he doesn't reflect positively on bellydance by dressing in this manner and representing BD given typical perceptions; and b) his dancing isn't good enough to counterbalance the presentation. That is the attire is too distracting.

chessurecat · 05-02-2007, 03:29 PM

I can see what Dani is also saying...it really doesn't seem she's judging him as a person! Her passion for dance is great as well! ;-)

chessurecat · 05-02-2007, 03:31 PM

Happy belated B~Day, Sarah!!

Lauren_ · 05-02-2007, 04:06 PM

People have a right to do...whatever...of course.

But I have to agree that if this were a female wearing nothing but, say, a hip scarf & tube top, and clearly nude in some videos, tolerating & inviting comments like these, we'd all be skeeved out, never mind the dancing.

That doesn't make it wrong or bad. Just none of my business as a dancer, 'cuz it's not about dancing.

urbana · 05-02-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danidance

"When we judge another person the only thing we prove is that we are a person who needs to judge."

What's relevant is what kind of behavior reflects well on belly dance IF generally people get pissed off about being treated like or considered as strippers or worse if they take up BD.
distracting.

You just qualified being a stripper as being a bad thing.
That is a judgement.

mish_mish · 05-02-2007, 06:28 PM

I think the difference between him and someone wiggling around on YouTube in a skimpy outfit is that I can tell he really knows how to dance!

I agree with Sarah that there are times that I just don't really care what other people do since I can't control it. In the scheme of belly dance crimes

, I'd consider this one minor.

danidance · 05-02-2007, 08:42 PM

My statement was that it's not okay if people get mad about that- which people do - there've been scads of posts about the general population equating BD with stripping and why that's not okay.

For me, I have no issue with women who choose to strip (issue as far as who they are as people), but, the practice of stripping in strip joints for guys looking for titilation? yeah, i think that's not doing much for women in the long run in terms of being considered as equals and fighting the kind of treatment that Nanda has posted about on another thread.

Again, I'm not making moral judgements about character - I'm saying certain behaviors are not particularly in keeping with changing perceptions and garnering respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbana

You just qualified being a stripper as being a bad thing.
That is a judgement.

melania · 05-03-2007, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaia jean

I personally did not like it when Adore did her bra-and-belt only dance on the Solos in Monte Carlo DVD. That is a professionally-done DVD that should perhaps reflect what is "proper" stage attire.
- Shaia

Repeat repeat: Adore is doing a SAMBA piece on the Monte Carlo dvd. She is wearing MORE than most professional Samba dancers wear.

shaia jean · 05-03-2007, 12:38 AM

I'll tell Kish Kish that he should do a samba next time! Wee-hee!!

Boys just wanna have fun...

lizajuk · 05-03-2007, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mish_mish

I think the difference between him and someone wiggling around on YouTube in a skimpy outfit is that I can tell he really knows how to dance!

.

That's why it's shame he chose to dress like that.
Men, specially in his own culture have a hard enough time of it getting to dance belly dance rather than folk forms of Arabic dance. They are frowned upon for wearing a male version of orientale costuming instead of a gelabeya or other traditional male folkloric clothing.
So he goes for the cheeky cheesecake!

Wrong!...... if he is serious about his belly dancing BUT if he isn't well shrug.... I can not take seriously any man or woman who does not dress appropriately. What's good for a stripper or burly dancer is not for a belly dancer, surely.

bellydancerinfo · 05-04-2007, 08:21 AM

I have to admit that X number of years ago I was very conservative. I would have been posting just like Dani. I can see that many people would be uncomfortable with this clip. The reality is that what ever you do effects everything you do.

But I guess in the last couple of years I have recieved people giving me more commentary about what I am doing. And... I started feeling like: "why do people care what I am doing if it doesnt effect them?"

I remember one of the Nina & Vena twins put themselves on some public thing wearing a bathing suit saying that she is a model, bellydancer and was single, looking for a date. Boy did she get trashed!!!

I started thinking... If I care about the publics impression of what bellydance is- I need to stop trashing. We need to stop bringing ourselves down. Support people to find what gives them the most opportunities.

I know I know it is hard to keep the catty commentary in check. I mean I just couldnt resist saying I wanted his hip scarf to fall. The rest of you are being very good about not sinking to my leval.