Er... Under-dressed?

danidance · 05-06-2007, 06:28 PM

Shimi,

"And yeah, Youtube/Myspace is a dumping ground for random things, and I'd rather it showed up in cyberspace in way, than in our local family Greek restaurant on a Wednesday night! Might be hard to explain."

dunyah · 05-07-2007, 09:06 AM

You know, I have to agree with Danidance on this one. This guy may be a wonderful person and a fine addition to the local dance shows. But based on these two clips (the hip scarf and the naked one), he gives me the impression that he is nuts. Some exhibitionist issues going on there. My instinct would be to stay far, far away from this guy. He's kind of a wild card, does he really know where to draw the line in a live performance? Why post these kinds of clips on YouTube if you are serious about yourself as a dancer, male OR female?

shimarella · 05-07-2007, 01:23 PM

I think that's generalising a bit! I think I'm capable of separating my crazier performance art from what's acceptable at a conventional family gig setting, and I don't see any reason to assume that this dude can't either. Youtube is the perfect setting for dumping experimental and silly work, not just "serious". Besides which, several posters have already said they know the guy and his "regular" stage work.

asimatiyat · 05-07-2007, 01:45 PM

I think that the difference between a guy doing this and a girl doing this is that our culture has a female ideal of beauty, so we generally think of a naked woman as a sexual image and a naked man as a humorous image. For instance, when I think about naked men in movies, the first two images that come to mind are the naked fight in Borat and the naked guy chasing the car in Sideways. Judging by his description of himself as a "hairy half-naked guy", I think Kish Kish is going for humor with this one.

As for the larger debate, I think that it's possible that we'd get more respect from the mainstream if we *weren't* preoccupied with self-policing and maintaining family-friendliness. Most widely respected art forms, like ballet, modern dance, the theater, fine art, etc, often deal with adult themes and content. Strict limits on what is appropriate tend to show up in art forms that are generally considered "middlebrow" at best, like TV, pop music, and, in the past, musical theater.

AngelaDiCaprio · 05-07-2007, 02:10 PM

I'm with you on this one, Dunyah... He may be a great dancer.. but he has not gained any respect from me... His voyerism is kinda creepy to me....

dunyah · 05-07-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimarella

I think that's generalising a bit! I think I'm capable of separating my crazier performance art from what's acceptable at a conventional family gig setting, and I don't see any reason to assume that this dude can't either. Youtube is the perfect setting for dumping experimental and silly work, not just "serious". Besides which, several posters have already said they know the guy and his "regular" stage work.

I am basing my impression of the guy on what I see with my own two eyes on YouTube. It is reassuring that other dancers in his community are supportive. He may be just fine at the shows. But BASED ON THESE TWO CLIPS, I do not get a good impression of him as someone I would want to hire or work with. Just my opinion.

Why put your most outrageous stuff on YouTube if you are serious about your dancing? Maybe he's not that serious, he's more into having fun dancing naked on YouTube. I guess he can do that if he wants to!

shimarella · 05-07-2007, 04:56 PM

Hey Dunyah, I get where you're coming from and I'm sure you're not alone. And I guess that the risk YouTube/MySpace posters take is precisely that the impression people form of them may be based entirely on what they post. For example, my opinion of poorly-spelled, incoherent posts on sites like that is hard for me to overcome!

I just happen to disagree that posting outrageous work online negates your "serious" work. It's part of a body of work, as it were.

chessurecat · 05-07-2007, 06:43 PM

Yeah for Nora!!!!!!!!!!

mish_mish · 05-07-2007, 07:07 PM

That cat has some nerve playing piano in the nude and then posting it on YouTube.

dunyah · 05-07-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mish_mish

That cat has some nerve playing piano in the nude and then posting it on YouTube.

There's a belly dancing cat on YouTube that wears only a hip scarf! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWDR7Tgjqes

But cats are never nude

mish_mish · 05-07-2007, 11:06 PM

That cat WAS wearing only a hipscarf and the drummer wasn't wearing ANYTHING.

danidance · 05-08-2007, 12:01 AM

Who you calling naked? She's got a gorgeous fur suit on. And she didn't show her giblets - very modestly posed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mish_mish

That cat has some nerve playing piano in the nude and then posting it on YouTube.

shaia jean · 05-08-2007, 01:41 AM

Wow, Dunyah! Now, calling Kish Kish nuts is going way over the line. Fun, yes. Impulsive? At times. But let's not get mean-spirited. He has feelings, you know. This is not just a cartoon character, or some mega-star who is so far removed from comments that this would never reach his eyes or ears. Let's have a little respect for the man. Expressing an opinion on his costuming choice is one thing; making him out to be a pervert is quite another. His on-stage costuming is always quite tasteful, unless his going shirtless makes you run for the hills in fear and disgust. Yes, I do stand up for my friends, and I am not friends with perverts or "wild cards". You should meet him; he is quite nice. As I'm sure you are. Just perhaps a bit too freaked out by a pair of legs (and I know that he is wearing underwear).

Sashy · 05-08-2007, 08:09 AM

<unless his going shirtless makes you run for the hills in fear and disgust>

There is a very famous(and hot!)international flamenco dancer that 75% of his performances on stage are done totally bare chested and nobody called him nuts ever.He is Joaquin Cortes.

Lauren_ · 05-08-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sashy

<unless his going shirtless makes you run for the hills in fear and disgust>

There is a very famous(and hot!)international flamenco dancer that 75% of his performances on stage are done totally bare chested and nobody called him nuts ever.He is Joaquin Cortes.

Does he wear pants, though?

Sashy · 05-08-2007, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Does he wear pants, though?

Sure!!!!

http://www.joaquincortes.tv/accounts...asp?lang=lng_1

http://www.joaquincortes.tv/accounts/acc_6/web/#

dunyah · 05-08-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaia jean

Wow, Dunyah! Now, calling Kish Kish nuts is going way over the line. Fun, yes. Impulsive? At times. But let's not get mean-spirited. He has feelings, you know. This is not just a cartoon character, or some mega-star who is so far removed from comments that this would never reach his eyes or ears. Let's have a little respect for the man. Expressing an opinion on his costuming choice is one thing; making him out to be a pervert is quite another. His on-stage costuming is always quite tasteful, unless his going shirtless makes you run for the hills in fear and disgust. Yes, I do stand up for my friends, and I am not friends with perverts or "wild cards". You should meet him; he is quite nice. As I'm sure you are. Just perhaps a bit too freaked out by a pair of legs (and I know that he is wearing underwear).

Sorry, but that was my reaction to how he presents himself in those two clips. Someone like me who will never see him or meet him in person has no other way of forming an opinion. I believe you when you say he is a great guy and a tasteful performer. That is your experience of him. But that's not MY experience of him. Based on those clips, I still think he is a rather extreme person. It is also giving a rather trashy image of belly dancing.

dunyah · 05-08-2007, 10:51 AM

BTW, I did not say he was a "pervert." I did say he was "nuts" but I meant it more in the sense of being foolish or very unwise. I admit the word sounded inflammatory. But I still think it's foolish or very unwise to present himself and his dance to the world this way.

But what do I know, maybe he will become a big star as a result of it. Popular culture loves the outrageous.

I come from a generation of dancers who had to work very hard to win acceptance for our dance, and who experienced prejudice and put downs on occasion for being a belly dancer. The younger generation seems to embrace trashiness more and not worry about having a respectable image as much as we did. The culture has shifted. But it still bothers me when I see the dance represented in a way that seems less than classy to me. There's another clip on the boards right now of famous dancers swigging from a whiskey bottle as they dance. I know it's supposed to be cute, but it just galls me.

asimatiyat · 05-08-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunyah

BTW, I did not say he was a "pervert." I did say he was "nuts" but I meant it more in the sense of being foolish or very unwise. I admit the word sounded inflammatory. But I still think it's foolish or very unwise to present himself and his dance to the world this way.

But what do I know, maybe he will become a big star as a result of it. Popular culture loves the outrageous.

I come from a generation of dancers who had to work very hard to win acceptance for our dance, and who experienced prejudice and put downs on occasion for being a belly dancer. The younger generation seems to embrace trashiness more and not worry about having a respectable image as much as we did. The culture has shifted. But it still bothers me when I see the dance represented in a way that seems less than classy to me. There's another clip on the boards right now of famous dancers swigging from a whiskey bottle as they dance. I know it's supposed to be cute, but it just galls me.

Speaking as a member of the "younger generation" (just turned 22!), I'd like to see if I can clarify. For me -- and, I would imagine, for the Indigo -- it's still about being respected, but more about being respected as an ARTIST, and less about being respected as family-friendly entertainment.
Clowns are family friendly, but I don't want to be respected the way a clown is respected. It's not that we don't want the dance form to be classy, we just don't want it to be a gimmick or a party trick -- more "what do you think that performance was really trying to say?" and less "look kids, it's a belly dancer!". :)

shaia jean · 05-08-2007, 11:15 AM

I understand what you're saying, Dunyah. Reading comments such as this about a close friend who you know nearly obsesses about the quality of his public performances can really be a big button-pusher. But you do not know him, you only know what you have seen, and what you saw offended you. Have you checked out his Veil Solo No. 1, 2 and 3? Just breathtaking. I don't know how to transfer a YouTube video to Bhuz, or I would do that.

perizaad · 05-08-2007, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunyah

There's a belly dancing cat on YouTube that wears only a hip scarf! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWDR7Tgjqes

But cats are never nude

I like the caption- "Yeah, we were bored."