how to "take" meaness and personal attacks on bhuz.

[dinavienna]

Oh no on the contrary - often singers, musicians, dancers are highly educated. but they know their crowd - which is oftentimes not so well educated especially when you re a musician or comedian!
And they absolutely play with THEIR mentality and have fun to get away wtih dirty jokes!

Orit is really great - although Israeli society is something entirely different. Firstly they became Mideastern in the middle of the 20th century, most of its population migrated from Europe and the Soviet Union - so they were pretty "Western" and open minded anyway.
Secondly, for them bellydance is something very exotic and sexy and fun anyway, just like bellydance for Westerners is. The Jewish dances have some of the elements, but also many Slavic elements. After all, they were in the diaspora far from the Mideast for 2000 years. So I think it is safe to say they adopted a lot of other cultures.. and to them today's Mideastern cultures very often are as exotic as for Westerners.
This means they are in the threat of over-sexualizing bellydance just like Westerners are.

[Nouria]

Originally Posted by dinavienna

well said!

Merci...oh yes, and shaabi... dirigin dirigin

[Nouria]

[quote=dinavienna;455930
Orit is really great - although Israeli society is something entirely different. [/QUOTE]

Sure, you're totally right. I just think she embodies that cheeky flirtatiousness very well. Dina and Orit both studied though, they're both educated and self confident women. But what Orit does wouldn't be questioned like what Dina does and I suppose the Dina thing also has got to do somehow with the specific barriers her society imposes on females. Dina kind of has this "oh my feelings are stronger than me" sort of way of getting around the conscious attack on decency rules, it's always a: I just can't help it it's stronger than me, I'm not guilty, I'm just a little helpless woman... And then she cracks up laughing!
I love her!

[Nouria]

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I think a lot of the time, and part of Dina's charm for me, is that she is sometimes like a happy six year old delightedly enjoying the music. She just temporarily forgot that she's 40-something with boobs under her chin and a thong emerging from her skirt.

Whatever we disagree upon, I think you said this very well!

[dinavienna]

Originally Posted by Nouria

Dina kind of has this "oh my feelings are stronger than me" sort of way of getting around the conscious attack on decency rules, it's always a: I just can't help it it's stronger than me, I'm not guilty, I'm just a little helpless woman... And then she cracks up laughing!
I love her!

that s a great observation!!!

[SamarDahab]

Originally Posted by dinavienna

(I don't know if you guys are aware of this - theology presents the way to paradise in Islam as an "account" - every time you suffer, even if it is just illness or something like that, so more of a "fate" rather than reward issue, you get good credit; you do something good or educate yourself or strive on the way of God you get good credit, you give your husband or wife satisfaction you get good credit, you are good with your parents etc; then of course sins and bad temper etc give you bad credit... interesting theological system, this "points" scheme I am unaware of which school represents it, I have heard it from various Sunni scholars, mostly Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki if I am right; to me it seems like Sunni mainstream.))

I was just discussing this with a friend. A muslimah friend of mine was telling me that i'll be rewarded because I was suffering with giving something up. She said there's no reward in things you can easily give up. I was discussing this idea with a Christian friend. I think that shows up in Christianity sometimes too but not quite as a point system. When we observe lent you're supposed to give up something difficult for you. Also when someone is having a terrible life i've heard it said, "I'll get my reward in heaven." I never really liked that thinking but I guess it's comforting.
So do people try to keep track of how many points they have? Or do they just try to do more good than bad?

[Zana]

Backing it up a little -- with regard to sexuality, Orit has described the role of the bellydancer at a wedding very much as you did above, Dina. (I think actually that her orientation, her way of looking at the dance, is very Egyptian in general.) I'm paraphrasing very briefly, not trying to put words in her mouth, but there was the idea of "warming things up" and giving both the newlyweds and the older folks in attendance -- the parents and grandparents, the extended family that's welcoming and celebrating the new couple -- some sexy ideas. Not being vulgar or aggressively sexual or only sexual, but being cheeky and flirty and light-heartedly suggestive along with all the other elements of the dance. At the same time, intertwined with this, she described the bellydancer's role as that of a "big mama" -- being warm and reassuring and telling the inexperienced bride and groom, through her movements and attitude, that the beginning of their intimate adult relationship with one another is a good and positive thing. Not showing them what they're supposed to do, literally, but giving them the idea of a happy, passionate body in motion (my words) and conveying the idea that "it's all going to be all right" (her words).

There was a lot more, but that's the gist, I think. I really, really appreciated the way she spoke about this -- as if to say, let's not run away from the idea that this art form is connected with sexuality and expresses that aspect of our humanity among other aspects, but please let's not sell ourselves short by acting as if sex is all it's about. She was both vivid and matter-of-fact about it. It was energizing.

[dinavienna]

Raksgirl - I do know some people who are very passionate about the idea of scoring points and speak about it lots :))
I do not think anybody tries to calculate the score though.

As you said, it is comforting when you have an illness or something very difficult to go through..

I am aware that Christians (very pious ones I am aware of) tend to see it as a "test" by God - so not directly as a suffering-reward system, but as a test on what you are made of. And there must be a verse in the Bible where it says those who are loved by God are those who are tested the most. And then there's "the last ones will be the first" - the standard verse the Catholic church above all has used to keep especially colonized peoples like in Latin America down. Do not worry, you suffer here, in paradise you will be kings. (my cynical interpretation)

Also some people I have noticed accept hardship and "sacrifice" it for a matter very dear to them - kind of a deal with God. I think sacrifice is very central to the Catholic faith above all. Part of my family comes from Sicily, Italy, so it is from there I know Catholicism - especially the Madonna is the ultimate image of the sacrificing female, at least how she is portrayed in more Latin/Mediterranen contexts.

I do not like the idea at all - I can see the "test" idea. Sounds reasonable. Still, that sounds also sadistic. Putting the ones you think are very good through hardship to see whether their faith is strong.. that is a divine image that sounds not so loving and entirely good..

And well the "score" system - I see everything you do in thoughts or words or action will affect your "balance" given you believe in God or the afterlife. But this picture of paradise compensation in Islam includes anything like disease or other suffering. I do not see why anyone, good or bad in morales, should get credited for disease simply because it was bad for him. I guess it's the humanists/human ethics standpoint you are what you do - and not you are what you suffer.

Haha deep theological reasoning on this thread :)

I wanted to add - yes, I agree with everything Nouria and Zana said. I would like to point out that this is an image of bellydance very much connected to Egyptian society and culture, which can be very raunchy.
It can not necessarily be transferred to other Arab countries, or even non Arab cultures like Persian, Kurdish..

In all of the other cultures the audience definitely wants archetypical femininity, sexiness - a celebration of life and joy and love at a wedding. How much sexuality is part of the equation is VERY tricky. If not in Egypt but in the West or in another Arab country I'd be VERY careful with how much of a "sex educator"/Big Mama spice to add to the dance :)

[kharis_UK]

Originally Posted by rakgirl

Also when someone is having a terrible life i've heard it said, "I'll get my reward in heaven." I never really liked that thinking but I guess it's comforting.

I kind of believe that suffering can be connected to soul debt as well, and not just about suffering for the sake of having a ball on the other side. I guess we all want to believe that suffering has some point.

[anala]

I ascribe suffering to the randomness of the Universe, which is comforting in it's own way, since you are not being targeted by the big parent in the sky for what ever reason. Sh*t just happens.

[Freddie]

Just my two pence re floowork and Turkish ...

Turkish is a style that suits my flamboyant character, and although I sometimes dance in a more Egyptian style, and really enjy that too (and looooove watchign good Egyptian), I do love to do floorwork, so I often end up dancing Turkish or just some sort of fusion gobbledegook to have an excuse to do it. And I prefer to dance in heels, which tends to be down the Turkish end of the spectrum a bit more.

Floorwork ... firstly thanks Liz for the thumbs up on mine, that's a relief, because I often wonder if people will look at me with distaste when I do it! I have damaged or dirtied a couple of costumes, but only the pants bit or the skirt, and I've usually made them out of washable fabric anyway. Have never damaged a belt, not even when abseiling down the side of a building in one. But yes, floors can be filthy, perhaps I'll consider taking my own little Persian carpet with me next time.

To the sexiness of floorwork? As Kharis said, like everything else, it's about intent. It ain't what you do, but the way that you do it. And I HATE the way Prences Banu used to do it. She was such an exhibitionist and her costuming said it all for me. I'm not the queen of floorwork by ANY stretch of the imagination, I just don't have the strength or flexibility to be that good, but I do try to "keep it clean" at all times. I find yoga a massive help though so anyone intending on trying it, get thee hence to a yoga class or two first.

Turkish in general - well, I have my likes and dislikes. Can't abide Zumre for a start. Love Tulay Karaca. Love Turkish Rrom, love the folk dances, don't much like holiday resort dancing, especially the "animation" section where members of the public are often ritually humiliated in a sexually predatory way (bald heads between boobies, sitting on their bodies while they are blindfolded etc).

I was once fortunate enough to do some dancing with one of Nesrin Topkapi's backing dancers and through him I learned a lot about how to do it the way it "should" be done (in his opinion).

Turkish Shmurkish - there's good, bad and ugly. As with everything.

Oh and totally agree with the upper body stuff - is it just me or does anyone else think that if you look at a map of the world, start at Morrocco and go East, the movements are accented higher and higher up the body until we get to Persia where we even get the eyebrows etc going?

Da Fredsta xxx

[dinavienna]

Originally Posted by Freddie

Oh and totally agree with the upper body stuff - is it just me or does anyone else think that if you look at a map of the world, start at Morrocco and go East, the movements are accented higher and higher up the body until we get to Persia where we even get the eyebrows etc going?

Da Fredsta xxx

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Yes I agree the intent does a lot.
Today I watched Bellydance Revolution and I saw a girl called Sapphira in a dance called "magic blue" or something. She dropped to the floor and did the vibrating, which I normally do not like.
I watched it with a somewhat neutral mind, especially after our discussions. She did it for a short time (Nouria, what you said I believe is so valid!), and also it was one of the occasions her dancing fit the music VERY nicely (somewhat ecstatic part of the song).
I found it really nice for the first time I understood it I guess

[kharis_UK]

Originally Posted by anala

I ascribe suffering to the randomness of the Universe, which is comforting in it's own way, since you are not being targeted by the big parent in the sky for what ever reason. Sh*t just happens.

Not sure that I subscribe to randomness. I'm a great believer that all things happen for a reason. There are no synchronicities.