Need some serious web design advice

[ssipes]

Hey Bhuzzers:

I need some help. I need to acquire the skills and software to make simple web sites. I have no idea where to start. Here are my needs/limitations:

1. I work on macs -- that's what I have at work and home.

2. I have no $$ so I can't pay someone to do it, nor can I purchase expensive software. I just downloaded NVu on the recommendation of a coworker, but am clueless as to how to do anything with it, and I have an ancient version of Adobe Pagemill that runs on OS 9 that is now a huge pain to open in classic and run. I have the updated Adobe professional suite, but it no longer includes Pagemill. If I absolutely have to have something else, I can inquire as to whether it is available somehow via the university, but like I said, I can't buy anything right now.

3. I need to make and be responsible for updating 4 websites: a website for my professional academic activities, one for my dance-oriented univ. registered student organization, one for my professional dance company, and one for my silk veil business. Prioritized in that order.

4. I have made simple websites before with Pagemill (see below), and didn't find it that difficult, and I know how to upload html and image files onto a server:http://www.science.siu.edu/plant-bio...pes/index.html
http://www.siu.edu/~mede/MEDEhome.html
O.K. I know these pretty much suck and are just a background, text, and some photos, but they demonstrate my current abilities. However, I can't even figure out how to make something like these in Nvu.

5. I have to use official SIU university page templates for my academic and registered student org pages, which will probably make those easier. I suppose I need to use a page template for the others though, but even the simple ones available at free template sites are complicated.

So, I need a book, a tutorial, or something. I need to learn this stuff and I have no idea where to start. I know very little html, and I am completely clueless about CSS, Flash, Java, etc. etc. Can anyone help guide me where I should begin?

Sedonia

[beafarhana]

Not much help as my website design skills are no better, but I'd say, forget about flash & java. Focus on html & CSS.

[phillyraqs]

Check out www.webmonkey.com - very basic site, but it helped me to learn html and I still refer to it all the time. I also like www.oswd.org for web templates - clean and easy.

I suggest buying a book on html and checking a few out of the library - perhaps one of the For Dummies books, there are tons on the market.

And I suggest asking around, there may be free or very low cost classes on web design in your area - your local library, rec center, community college, even a church group in my area has a "Learn how to build a website" class for free.

Have you considered exchanging services with someone? Perhaps a web designers weight in silk veils for designing 4 websites?

Also, I like both of your websites listed - they look fine to me!

[Lauren_]

Sedonia, I've never found a good WYSIWYG editor that wasn't at least a couple of hundred dollars -- like Pagemill. But with your educational discount, couldn't upgrading Pagemill be affordable?

I've used lots of free/cheap editors, but they're not much better than just writing out the html in a word processor, really.

I sympathise, though. I still have older versions of some major software that I have to run in the classic environment, and it's a massive pain. I'm launching OS 9 almost daily, but it would cost me $2000 to upgrade the programs I use! Maddening. I'm afraid to upgrade my Mac OS (I'm at 10.2.8) because I fear it'll get even worse.

[*Shira*]

I don't use a Macintosh, so I can't advise you on software products. But I can offer you some tips on where to begin with learning html.

• Forget about updating Pagemill. Adobe killed the product about 6 years ago.
• Find out whether the University's IT organization has a standard web authoring product that they recommend. If they do, you may be able to get a discounted price through the university as well as technical assistance.
• Do try to learn a LITTLE html. I know it looks pretty icky, but it's useful to know some basics. In particular, css is worth learning, and it helps a lot to know certain html basics before you tackle css.
• Don't bother trying to learn flash, cgi, or java at this time. But css is worth learning.

These are the html tags that I would recommend taking some time to learn:

For formatting text, should be learned before tackling css:

• <P> and </P>
• <H1> and </H1>, <H2> and </H2>, <H3 and </H3>, <H4> and </H4>
• <FONT> and </FONT> (mostly to help you learn css). Experiment with learning how to specify which font to use, and also with learning how to change the font color.
• <BR> and </BR> learn the difference between this and <P>
• <B> and </B> (bolding), <I> and </I> (italic)

To learn the above, I suggest using a plain text editor to type in a sample test page. Experiment with using all of the above. Then use a browser to display your test page and see how you did. Practice at this until you have completely mastered it. Once you have mastered the above, you should be okay with starting to learn about css.

Other html tags worth knowing how to hand-code:

• <A HREF> and </A HREF> Sometimes the WYSIWYG "what you see is what you get" editors put stuff into the link that you didn't want included as part of the highlighted text. Knowing how the <A HREF> tag works allows you to correct it by hand rather than struggling with fixing in the WYSIWYG.
• <IMG SRC> . I rarely hand-code insertion of graphics into a page, but it's useful to be able to READ this tag and understand what I'm seeing in case I need to tweak it.

[resullivan]

I can't find the site on HTML code that I absoultely love...I lost the address.

But 2 that seem similar are w3school and Dave's HTML Guide

[zorba]

www.htmlgoodies.com

Not as easy to get around in as it once was, but still an excellent site to learn HTML. I still hand edit everything (on a Mac now also), but would like to have DreamWeaver "someday".

Stay the heck away from FrontPage, whatever else you may do!

[*Shira*]

I echo Zorba's comment - stay away from Front Page and any other Microsoft product that allegedly creates web pages. The html generated by Microsoft products is utterly horrid.

One problem with Microsoft is that that their products insert stuff that makes the page fail to display properly on non-Microsoft browsers. I know one dancer who authored the html for her upcoming class schedule in a Microsoft product. It looked fine when she used Microsoft's Internet Explorer to look at it, but all Firefox users saw was a blank page.

The other problem with Microsoft products is that the html they produce is utterly, horridly complex. They'll insert all kinds of crap that makes even a simple page's html impossible to read, even for someone with my 10 years of experience in creating/modifying html.

[sabrinabellydancer]

software: dreamweaver from adobe
if you are a student, either you can get a cheap student stand alone version or see if any of the computer labs on campus have it installed. bet they do and you can use it for free.

tutorials:
http://w3schools.com/
http://csszengarden.com/

books:
the html book by thomas powell
i was fortunate enough to take some classes with him and got this book. its an "all you ever wanted to know" but readable.
if this is your first site, you have no need for java. it is much too complex a scripting language for your first project. same with javascript. [let the software write it. it will be verbose, but will work fine]

if you do use dreamweaver, get the book [from the library?]. once you know what you are trying to do, it is pretty intuitive.

you do not need flash. flash looks pretty but the web crawlers cant read it and ultimately it hurts your search engine optimization.

[ssipes]

Wow, thanks everyone for the suggestions, including what to stay away from.

O.K. Does anyone know about Adobe GoLive? is it WYSIWYG? Apparently this is what replaced PageMill in their creative suite, and I have this. Before I launch into trying to learn about it, can anyone give me any feedback? Should I spend my time learning this or try to obtain DreamWeaver? Our IT doesn't have site licenses for web design software.

Sedonia

[ssipes]

O.K. after some checking around I have access to DreamWeaver. So what should I start learning, DreamWeaver, GoLive, or something else? Any suggestons?

Sedonia

[*Shira*]

Originally Posted by ssipes

O.K. after some checking around I have access to DreamWeaver. So what should I start learning, DreamWeaver, GoLive, or something else? Any suggestons?

Sedonia

When I posed the GoLive vs Dreamweaver question on tribe.net (I was thinking of Windows environment), the feedback overwhelmingly favored Dreamweaver.

Back before Adobe acquired Macromedia, GoLive was Adobe's product and Dreamweaver was Macromedia's. Dreamweaver soundly trounced GoLive in the marketplace. Now that Adobe acquired Macromedia, they own both products. From what I know of the tech industry, I personally believe that Adobe will eventually discontinue GoLive and migrate customers to Dreamweaver.

I bought a copy of GoLive about 7 years ago. Found it to be a real pain in the neck to learn (compared to Pagemill), so I abandoned the effort and continued using Pagemill, which I still use today. At this point, I really do need to replace Pagemill with something more powerful, so I personally am leaning toward buying Dreamweaver.

[Lauren_]

If I had your choice, I'd learn dreamweaver! My info is out of date, but it was pretty much the top program in its category among professionals in my day.

[jawahir]

my vote is for dreamweaver. it's the best wysiwyg program because the code it writes is pretty clean for the most part. other programs add a lot of extra stuff that can make your page not look right in certain browsers. and it's really easy to use. you can go back and forth from html to wysiwyg easily so it actually helps you learn code also. i write mine in text, but if i were to use a program, dreamweaver would be it!

[deelybopper]

My skills are pretty limited, but I managed to teach myself some basic html and css, and that's what I used to build my website (address at bottom of page) - it's basic and functional.

I really like the information available at www.htmldog.com - it was easy enough for me to understand

I've struggled with Nvu, and I use a basic html editor (Alleycode - you can download it free from www.alleycode.com), but you do need to understand html and css to make the best use of it.

Good luck, and let us know what you go with!
D

[danidance]

The new Adobe CS3 environment has a really great interface between InDesign and Dreamweaver. You can design in InDesign and publish straight for web.

I haven't had a chance to fool with it - but it looks very promising. Better process than GoLive IMO which I did not find easy at all.

You can download CS3 for a month long trial - it might be worth checking out.

[sabrinabellydancer]

definitely dreamweaver!
here are some links to get you started:
http://www.adobe.com/support/dreamwe...ial_index.html

http://www.cbtcafe.com/dreamweaver/

http://www.entheosweb.com/free_resources.asp

http://www.developingwebs.net/dreamweaver/

good luck and remember to start simply. you can always trick it out later, fist get it functioning.

[petgecko]

If you're going to use a WYSIWYG, definitely Dreamweaver.
Just be aware that it injects some code into the page that sometimes "breaks" it (your page may not look exactly as you want it to) for users on the new Windows-based Internet Explorer, and possibly Firefox on the PC (though, the Firefox people are pretty good about updating their stuff, so it may not read the code weird any more).

PS: I taught myself HTML about 12 years ago, and the best book, still, is "O'reilly Web Design in a Nutshell"