Thread: this got out of control....moving...

I just had another thought . . .

"people will be people"

Who has the responsibility to "restrain," "control," "teach," adults who act in selfish, rude, irresponsible, offensive ways?

You can be a "bad" parent and produce a lovely well-behaved human being and you can be a "wonderful" parent and produce an ill-behaved human being. My point is that even though environment and upbringing most certainly have a huge part to play, at some point the individual becomes the author of his/her own personality.

People will try to preach at you about anything. I have one child. There are lots of reasons why I have one. I hate hearing people tell me I should have more because he will be spoiled/lonely/whatever. My child is perfectly fine without an outsider's opinion.

Also, I was one of those who was not going to get married or have kids. But I fell in love and my life is 100% different than it was 10 years ago. I would say dance is about the only thing that stayed the same. And even that changed.

Originally Posted by Bellybabe

Actually, I would say that if/when I ever use this line it's not when I am trying to prove I am right. More that I am trying to convey that things are not always what they seem no matter which side of the fence you are on.

I'm guilty of using this line, and that's why I think of it as a default line. It's a bit lazy, I know. For instance, if my brother tells me something about the mixed grass in the front yard, I'll say, Yea, wait until you have a house. He can't understand all the problems/issues that come w/home ownership since he lives in an apartment. So, I'm trying to get him to see that it's not easy. And I'm also nicely telling him to shut up, too, since he has no idea how much hard work we've put into the lawn. When I say something about his kids, he'll say, Wait until you have a kid, which technically means, You have no idea what it's like to raise a child so don't even start with me. That makes us even. He'll never buy a house, according to him, and I'll never have kids. Well, I shouldn't say never, but I think you get what I am saying.

I have two boisterous nephews who spend a goodly chunk of their time when visiting my parents either in the large lounge, running around, or in the garden, running around. It's true that they have a lot of energy to burn and they are best off doing so.

The difference between my brother, my parents and myself, and *some* parents, is that if they are playing too roughly in the lounge they are *told* to stop doing X. Nobody says "oh kids will be kids, sorry the crystal got broken." And I would hazard a guess that the "how dare you chastise my child" brigade would have a FIT if their unchastised, unrestrained child threw themselves through a glass table because "kids will be kids" and shops and other people's homes shouldn't have such dangerous things in them.

Can't have it both ways. If kids will be kids, and you're happy to let them tear up someone else's property, then when they are hurt or worse, you can't complain. Because you absolved all responsibility for their physical safety. And if they grow up to be criminals or abusers because they have no respect for other people's property or physical boundaries, you have nobody to blame but yourself IMO.

It is *that* style of parenting that bothers me. To me if you take your kids to a friend's house where there *is* no space for them to run around, you make it very clear to them that they will have to behave in a certain way at X's house. You provide them with items for "quiet play," you limit how long you'll stay and if you know they are terrors, you get them worn out first. Or else you simply do not go. Why should the non-parents have to be responsible for the parents' decisions?

I've had friends leave gatherings because their child is too tired and acting up. It's disappointing to farewell your friend but they're doing the right thing. I've also had dance classes where a participant's kids are running and screaming round the studio while she blissfully ignores them. They're in danger of hurting themselves and making other people uncomfortable. People need to learn to respect their own and other people's boundaries and the best time to start learning is in infancy.

So what is the problem if some of you ladies don't want kids...the human race is in no danger of extinction.
What's important is that the kids we have, we want!

I'm going to come at this from the perspective of, been there, done that, but now I'M A MOM who didn't plan on it and never had intentions.

Our son just turned 10 and is really into learning about vampires and some how Wiccan religion.

My 52 year old childless sister-in-law pissed me off to no ends last month. She invited our son to spend the weekend with her and a friend and her granddaughter in Maggie Valley.
Alex (my son) packed his bag and was excited to go. He told me he carved a wooden stake in case he came upon a vampire and also, he took a JAR with a closed lid of chopped garlic. Being the EXPIERNECED mother I am and knowing it's not a big deal, I let him take it. My sister-in-law pulled over and made him throw his stuff away at a rest stop b/c there is no such thing as vampires and she didn't want the garlic in her cabin. This hurt Alex so badly that he called me that night and cried, Alex NEVER cries. He said my sister-in-law took his house slippers away b/c they were to big and she didn't think he needed to wear them.

How rude and insensitive was that. Sometimes people with NO children really have NO CLUE on parenting and I hate it when they try on other peoples children.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I have two boisterous nephews who spend a goodly chunk of their time when visiting my parents either in the large lounge, running around, or in the garden, running around. It's true that they have a lot of energy to burn and they are best off doing so.

The difference between my brother, my parents and myself, and *some* parents, is that if they are playing too roughly in the lounge they are *told* to stop doing X. Nobody says "oh kids will be kids, sorry the crystal got broken." And I would hazard a guess that the "how dare you chastise my child" brigade would have a FIT if their unchastised, unrestrained child threw themselves through a glass table because "kids will be kids" and shops and other people's homes shouldn't have such dangerous things in them.

Can't have it both ways. If kids will be kids, and you're happy to let them tear up someone else's property, then when they are hurt or worse, you can't complain. Because you absolved all responsibility for their physical safety. And if they grow up to be criminals or abusers because they have no respect for other people's property or physical boundaries, you have nobody to blame but yourself IMO.

It is *that* style of parenting that bothers me. To me if you take your kids to a friend's house where there *is* no space for them to run around, you make it very clear to them that they will have to behave in a certain way at X's house. You provide them with items for "quiet play," you limit how long you'll stay and if you know they are terrors, you get them worn out first. Or else you simply do not go. Why should the non-parents have to be responsible for the parents' decisions?

I've had friends leave gatherings because their child is too tired and acting up. It's disappointing to farewell your friend but they're doing the right thing. I've also had dance classes where a participant's kids are running and screaming round the studio while she blissfully ignores them. They're in danger of hurting themselves and making other people uncomfortable. People need to learn to respect their own and other people's boundaries and the best time to start learning is in infancy.

Exactly. You articulated so well how I feel. I still feed bad that I offended Adishakti -- I didn't mean at all to make it personal, and I hope my apology in the post above is accepted, it is sincere -- but I do stand by my opinions. I tend to get extremely inarticulate when I have a really strong opinion on a matter I consider to be of social rather than personal interest, so I may inadvertently offend someone....... I feel we have more freedom of expression on Bhuz than anywhere else, 'tho ..... so throw it right back at me, I can take it..g.:

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I'm going to come at this from the perspective of, been there, done that, but now I'M A MOM who didn't plan on it and never had intentions.

Our son just turned 10 and is really into learning about vampires and some how Wiccan religion.

My 52 year old childless sister-in-law pissed me off to no ends last month. She invited our son to spend the weekend with her and a friend and her granddaughter in Maggie Valley.
Alex (my son) packed his bag and was excited to go. He told me he carved a wooden stake in case he came upon a vampire and also, he took a JAR with a closed lid of chopped garlic. Being the EXPIERNECED mother I am and knowing it's not a big deal, I let him take it. My sister-in-law pulled over and made him throw his stuff away at a rest stop b/c there is no such thing as vampires and she didn't want the garlic in her cabin.

How rude and insensitive was that. Sometimes people with NO children really have NO CLUE on parenting and I hate it when they try on other peoples children.

That has nothing to do with being childless and everything to do with being a humourless control freak.

Zummard,

Believe me, it is b/c she is childless AND being a humorless control freak.

I like vampire stuff ...... as long as he wasn't planning on driving that stake through someone's heart or actually opening that jar, I don't see the harm ... but since she invited him, I think she should set the rules for the duration of the visit. If the child or parent couldn't live with those rules, then the visit could be canceled and everyone gets to live by their own rules. In this case, it sounds like she was caught by surprise and didn't know he was bringing those items. I don't think she was right to throw them away. Not much different than believing in tooth fairies or easter bunnies or Santa -- if you don't believe in them, you don't throw away the kid's tooth, chocolate eggs or notes to Kris Kringle.... Maybe she was afraid of what he considered a vampire? Not defending her at all, just wondering if she was worried that he might use that stake on someone or something?

I don't have children. I wouldn't have a problem with that. It seriously has *nothing* to do with being childless.

Childless people were children once and many of us have children in our lives. We don't automatically forget everything about being children and know nothing about kids because we did not birth one. Some of us *did not get the choice*. Some of us *did not choose* not to be parents, though we have subsequently chosen to accept that we will not be and to enjoy a life where we are not primary caregivers.

No, she's my sister in law, I know what an upity, materlistic, business woman she is who has NO IDEA or memories as to what it was to be a child. She is a crude woman that I loth. She thinks kids should be adults and think the way she does.

Which has nothing to do with being childless.

Maybe not for you but it is for HER. She hasn't had children in her life. She doesn't have a clue, and she has no patients.

OK, so can we agree this is an individual thing and not something that can be applied to all people who are not experienced parents? Because I find the constant reiteration of "childless people don't understand anything" really hurtful.

ETA: I should also point out that I have met people who have had children and who nonetheless expect their children to act like adults from the word go, barring messy play and informal activities. I've met them. Giving birth didn't change them from humourless control freaks to laid back understanding individuals.

I take my four year old grand daughter out and we often have a coffee break for grand ma. She will sit, drink her soda and chattalking at a civilised level ,bum plonked firmly on her chair whilst other kids jump on sofas, shriek, run about narrowly avoiding barristas clearing tables and customers carrying cups of hot beveridges. All thiswhile their parents do and say F*** all! SIGH!

Interestingly, I'd like to point out that I have similar irritable feelings toward pet owners who don't care for their pets properly...i.e., don't bother to keep them leashed for their safety, or teach them basic manners for others' safety....and I am a pet owner...and I've been both a responsible one and an irresponsible one.

Well, this really has been an interesting thread. So here's an update. They're here, their little girl is absolutely stunning and perfectly well-behaved, and, oddly enough, our dogs have *so far* behaved themselves well, also. Hmm. Who would'a thunk it??

And....*I* have had a nap, which has greatly improved my perspective...so now I'm off to a gig...

Originally Posted by Adishakti

Actually, it's not about restraint. What are the parents supposed to do? Yell at them? Spank them? They've got energy to burn. What they need to do is to go outside and play instead of burning their energy at the expense of others in a cramped apartment. Kids are full of energy... they just are.

You can't make a person do anything. What this couple needs to do is take their children outside to play. Sometimes you just have to put things on hold and work these things out, spend some time with them... run around... take 'em to the park. But I don't think it's fair to call them brats.

thank you.

Kids aren't perfect angels all the time, no matter how great and attentive their parents may be.

Originally Posted by gothique

I've only had to smack my niece twice.

You never have to smack a child. You choose to do that.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

You never have to smack a child. You choose to do that.

In a moment of panic, I wasn't thinking, so I don't feel I had a choice.

If you see a kid doing something dangerous, do you think you'd act in your right mind? A sharp knife fell into the disposal, from the vibrations the sink made, it almost went flying out at BOTH of us!!!

That might be the ONLY time I smacked her HAND, I don't rember, there might have been a first one. (If there was a first one when she was younger it would have been on the HAND that time too!

She's a TEENAGER now, and I think I did pretty good with her.
I LIVED with her, and drove her everywhere (before I quit driving).

Originally Posted by zumarrad

OK, so can we agree this is an individual thing and not something that can be applied to all people who are not experienced parents? Because I find the constant reiteration of "childless people don't understand anything" really hurtful.

ETA: I should also point out that I have met people who have had children and who nonetheless expect their children to act like adults from the word go, barring messy play and informal activities. I've met them. Giving birth didn't change them from humourless control freaks to laid back understanding individuals.

That reminds me of a sans-child couple I know. They are amazing with their niece and nephews, going to Disney World, playing games like hide and go seek, and living childhood magic with them.

Just irresponsible, inconsiderate people annoy me. People who have pets, kids, parties late at night, loud arguments with their SO, whatever.

I do believe spankings are O.K.
thank God I NEVER had too do that!

Originally Posted by mish_mish

thank you.

Kids aren't perfect angels all the time, no matter how great and attentive their parents may be.

Well, now I'm back to my original rant....it's the 'what are the parents supposed to do?' that got me started. Teach them how not to behave in a way that is obnoxious or disrespectful BEFORE you take them out in public.....if the parents can't handle them ('what are they supposed to do'), what are those who are exposed to that behavior supposed to do -- sigh, smile sweetly and say, there there, after all, they are just kids? Why do I have to put up with it? I was not allowed to as a child, and I certainly would not get away with it as an adult. And being a child is no excuse for bad behavior. If they are not taught the difference as a child and that there are consistent consequences to the actions which they choose, how can they possibly grow up to be a responsible adult. No, I do not have children. But I was a child. I grew up without a father. But my mom and grandparents taught me to be compassionate towards all living things, and what really scares me when I experience that intolerable behavior is that they have no awareness, no insight into WHY they should not act that way.

I will post a separate thread about 3 kids that are an example of everything that is RIGHT in the way they behave in public -- in class, at a recital, wherever I have been in their company with their parents -- and it has been WAY past their bedtime, they have been tired, and their behavior has been way better than most adults. They are respectful. They do not grab, run through the place knocking people over or shriek. They do not throw tantrums. They do not yell "I want I want I want" and scream when the answer is a quiet "no". They have been taught by their parents what is appropriate, when and where it is not. If people believe this cannot be taught to children, then society is in deep, deep s***.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

You never have to smack a child. You choose to do that.

OK, then, I choose to smack the adult that will not take responsibility for the child's behavior. ..g.:

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

OK, then, I choose to smack the adult that will not take responsibility for the child's behavior. ..g.:

My niece wasn't perfect, she did test her limits.
She learned that she was going to be held accountable for her actions.

Time out was the way I punished her.

If she started screaming and throwing a fit, trying to get what she wanted, it didn't work. She tried it once, we patiently watched her (pretending not to be embarassed to death), and when she caught her breah, asked "Are you done yet?". Never tried it again.

Originally Posted by naiyahayal

OK, then, I choose to smack the adult that will not take responsibility for the child's behavior. ..g.:

And I choose to ignore your attitude because I will not engage in a discussion about why it's right to hit a 4 year old.

You don't like kids disrupting your life. I get it.

whew this is a hot one!!

Sonja, can I come at this from a place I haven't read in the replies?
It's like Liza J said above, What matters is we want the kids we have. I think you are a wise woman to know what you want. It's heartbreaking to see kids born to those who have kids because of pressure to conform to some idea of completeness. This is not the healthiest of reasons to have them.

I agree with your irritation of irresponsible pet owners and parents because those are the ones who stick out and give the rest of us a bad name. I would never dream of chastizing anyone for not wanting kids. On the contrary my response would be "good for you for knowing what you want." Maybe those that comment are envious of your freedom.

I have 2 kids, loves of my life, but not my whole life. I have a great husband and a million interests and other parts of me. Don't let these people rattle you. All you can do is respond with confidence (nothing pis##es of people more than confidence in that situation).

At a time when pets and even worse, children are being treated as the lates fashion accessories I give you a pat on the back for not having what you don't want right now or maybe never.

As a mother, I work hard to teach my kids manners. It really chaps me when I see parents allowing their offspring to behave in outrageous ways. IMO it's because of the increasingly disturbing trend of parents to raise their children as peers and not children. Parents want to be their kid's friend, not a parent. When we say to ourselves" We were never allowed to get away with that." You bet we weren't. That's what's lacking. The posibility of damaging the sacred self esteem of a kid has now eclipsed common sense.:soapbox:

Gothique, I like your avitar. New hair color? Looks cute