Thread: this got out of control....moving...

Kids don't know how to behave naturally and you can't teach them unless you take them places and help them learn.

A little patience is in order. Their brains aren't fully developed and they aren't small adults. The world would be a lot nicer if people were just a little more tolerant of normal child behavior. I didn't say that you don't teach children or that you allow kids to melt down in public. You have to be prepared to act and respond to different things. It seems like people just wait to point fingers at get all indignant about kids being kids.

It's not realistic to say, "Teach them before you take them out." You can't teach them in any kind of abstract way--you take them places and help them understand when you have to sit or talk quietly. And some place you just avoid.

I have two kids and I have worked in the child development field since 1992. I have never met a "brat." I have met kids who don't get their needs met --those kids act out more for attention or for lack of appropriate emotional and physical outlets.

Kids have rough days just like we do. They get hungry, tired, frustrated, bored, just like adults--just usually a little sooner.

Yes but it's the parent's job to channel these beahviors in an appropriate way. It's much better to practice a kid's restaurant skills at Burger King than at a nice place. I think what's got the dander up is that the parents don't handle it- like just remove the kid from the establishment. Don't try and reason, cajole, ignore, if it's disruptive to everyone else, remove them.

I never went for the "just let the kid throw the tantrum in the Safeway and when they realize it doesn't get them anywhere they will stop." Meanwhile, everyone else in the store has to put up with it. I think that is totally rude. There are so many other ways to handle these situations. I think parents have become a bit weenie-ish.

I'm not going to beat my kid in Safeway. Sorry for being a weenie.

No no no!! I said remove them, I never mentioned spanking.

that reminds me the time my family was in target and my brother was screaming bloody murder for his father (who ran back out to the car to get something)....and my mom just walked around as if nothing were happening. People were darting out of the aisle, so sure they would find a child all bloodied up or something.....l;, I dunno. sometimes it just really catches you off guard, the high pitched-surely-only-dogs-were-supposed-to-hear-that tantrum of screaming and crying...
I can laugh about it now, but man, at 12 years old that was so uncool. ,r:;

for my mom it was more about enforcing the upper hand "i'm the parent you're the child. scream if you want, it's not going to stop me from doing my task. the answer is no..."

in the case of my brothers-it was about temperament... if all they had to do was scream and cry to be removed from the unfavorable setting, they would have learned that they could control the situation and would continue to try to control every situation that way. A firm upper hand had to play a role in making sure they didn't learn to manipulate everything to their liking...because it wasn't up to them. So i actually applaud the moms who have the strength to just let the child scream.

HOWEVER....being on the other side of it all- hearing the child scream while I'm trying to shop/dine/nap/take a walk/meditate/etc is quite the disturbance.

so indeed....what are they supposed to do? Remember that we, at some point, were that child once? Even if we were good and never acted out when we were little, at one point we've all cried in public and some (or many) strangers has given us the stink eye...

Honestly I wish i could just throw down a tantrum when i wanted to. I think my blood pressure would benefit from just letting it out like that. ..l;, So my personal opinion is that the kid needs to do it, then they need to do it. perhaps remove them from the immediate situation if it's called for (like go into the bathroom of the restaurant or the back of the store or something) Everyone knows that the kid can only scream like that for so many years before people will want to put them in a straight jacket and medication....

wow...that posted much longer than i had thought. Sorry for the rant!!

As a mother, I work hard to teach my kids manners. It really chaps me when I see parents allowing their offspring to behave in outrageous ways. IMO it's because of the increasingly disturbing trend of parents to raise their children as peers and not children.

*nods* Manners cost nothing and are worth everything. Most of the kids in my life have been saying please and thank you for as long as they've been capable of talking. When they forget, you remind them. I can't understand parents who say "oh they are a CHILD they can't possibly be expected to say thank you or please." Yes, they can. And it makes strangers like them more. Kids who say please and thank you, step aside to let you pass and give up their seats on the bus make me feel happy and favourably disposed towards them. My nephew's been taking his dirty dishes and putting them in the sink since he was a toddler.

When I was growing up you never saw a vocalising baby given anything without having the word "ta" repeated to them. They learned to say "ta" and eventually "thank you." As did I.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

And I choose to ignore your attitude because I will not engage in a discussion about why it's right to hit a 4 year old.

You don't like kids disrupting your life. I get it.

Where did I say it was "right" to "hit a 4-year old"????????? Sorry you couldn't take a bit of humor about smacking an adult ....... I was trying to lighten things up a bit! Guess it's not just my buttons that were pushed....

And to say I don't like kids 'disrupting my life' is entirely misinterpreting everything I said and dismissing my concerns. That's the attitude I get a lot that really annoys me. Rather than engaging in an intelligent discussion about where we can agree, disagree, compromise or meet in a safe middle ground, that's what ALWAYS happens when an adult is challenged about why a kid can't be reprimanded when it is JUSTIFIED to reprimand him. Are you saying that it's not okay to suggest that any kid who acts badly be reprimanded or at least taught how to behave acceptably? Why is it not okay to speak up when a child is clearly out of control? I just don't get defending that behavior. I really don't. I wasn't suggesting you beat the crap out of the child. In fact, if he/she is acting out in public, it's already too late to redirect their behavior. They have obviously not been taught appropriate behavior when they were young enough for imprinting. It's too too late by then anyway. If a kid is screaming and disrupting a movie for others or tearing up merchandise in a store, for example, -- I'm not suggesting you whack the kid unconconscious, but are you seriously saying it's acceptable and there is no need to remove him/her or have any consequences, and everyone else should just put up with it? I'm not talking about children on a playground ....... I'm talking about public places where everyone needs to interact in a respectful way .....

..... and if an adult in a public place was screaming and out of control, wouldn't your life be "disrupted"? That child is only a child for so long before it becomes an adult ....... and behavior becomes engrained ..... so are you going to tolerate that same behavior when that child becomes an adult? Because it's not going to change unless the parent teaches it. And anyone who brings a life into this world has a responsibility, to the child by giving it tools with which to effectively and appropriately interact,and to the society which has to accept that child. Oh, and by the way, to those of us whose hard-earned taxes help pay for the education and welfare of that child.

Originally Posted by HOOKEDNOVICE

I never went for the "just let the kid throw the tantrum in the Safeway and when they realize it doesn't get them anywhere they will stop." Meanwhile, everyone else in the store has to put up with it. I think that is totally rude. There are so many other ways to handle these situations. I think parents have become a bit weenie-ish.

And just what are you supposed to do with the grocery cart it's taken you half an hour to fill (and which you need to cook supper and lunches) when you are on a timetable with a baby who needs feeding and a nap when you get home and the child who needs to be picked up from kindergarten when you are on the way home?

(And before you say "get a baby sitter" I will say that is not always feasible financially or otherwise.)

I can assure you it's MUCH more unpleasant for the parent in these situations than it is for everyone else in the store. Sometimes, for a child a tempter tantrum is the outlet of emotions they have no capacity (yet) to deal with. Rather like a storm. You have to let it blow over and then deal with the fall out afterwards.

It's the parent who has the challenging and sometimes unpleasant job of helping the child learn to manage and deal with their impulses and emotions. But it's also very rewarding when you begin to see that child develop control, self awareness and social awareness.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

Kids don't know how to behave naturally and you can't teach them unless you take them places and help them learn.

A little patience is in order. Their brains aren't fully developed and they aren't small adults. The world would be a lot nicer if people were just a little more tolerant of normal child behavior.

It's not realistic to say, "Teach them before you take them out." You can't teach them in any kind of abstract way--

Kids have rough days just like we do. They get hungry, tired, frustrated, bored, just like adults--just usually a little sooner.

I respectfully disagree, Mish Mish. I have been teaching 3 kids on Sunday nights. One is almost 4 and the other two are 7-1/2. It is late for them. I work them hard for an hour and a half until 9:00 PM. I can see they are tired. Not once have they acted out. I talked to their moms before we started this class because in my experience it's unusual for kids to have that kind of attention span and stamina. Their moms have talked to me a lot about how they are teaching them about what is acceptable and what is not, both at home and in public. They have taught them these things BEFORE they brought them to class or anywhere else in public. They did not wait to see how they would act in public before teaching them what was ok and what was not. And it appears to work. I find it amazing that kids are complimented on their ability to grasp computer game skills and yet forgiven for not being able to understand a simple concept like "no".

As far as people being a little more tolerant -- I see the opposite. Way too much tolerance and indulgence. It's too late for patience when the damage has already been done, I've seen aisles in stores where kids have emptied the shelves onto the floor, and no one says anything. Or is chastised when they do! I realize we may live in totally different environments, and our experiences may be very different. And, of course, kids get tired and have bad days. I keep stressing that I am talking about extreme behavior -- but I feel like my emphasis is being overlooked and, once again, I am dismissed as someone who just doesn't like kids in general.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

I'm not going to beat my kid in Safeway. Sorry for being a weenie.

Mish Mish -- where are you hearing ANYONE in this thread using the word "beat"? I'm pretty sure I've read every post.

[QUOTE=Bellybabe;236371]

I can assure you it's MUCH more unpleasant for the parent in these situations than it is for everyone else in the store.



I can assure you that it is not. ..c::

"I remember my parents teaching me how to act respectfully around animals from the time I was very, very small. "My little snowflake doesn't know better" is NOT an acceptable excuse for kids molesting other people's pets.

Ditto.

I also had it drummed into me as far back as I can remember (and that's back to before I was 2) that as a child you always *ask* other grownups for permission before wading in there and interfering with other people's pets and possessions.

My parents were big followers-through on consequences and also had absolutely no sympathy on the rare occasions that I received the consequences of doing something I had categorically been told not to (bitten by a horse, shocked by an electric fence etc).

I was the only child of older parents and was surrounded by adults except when I was at nursery so I guess I quickly learned a lot about adult standards of behavior.

So what is the problem if some of you ladies don't want kids...the human race is in no danger of extinction.
What's important is that the kids we have, we want!

Yes! ..g.:

I think some posters are reacting in very absolutist ways. "You don't understand that children need to learn." Yes, we do understand that. The difference is the way *some* parents go about that learning process.

For instance, in my life, I have people who might decide that they are not going to react to tantrums, so their children learn that tantrums don't get them anywhere. Those people will say to you quietly "if he doesn't stop soon I will do something, but right now I'm trying to ignore tantrums so he doesn't get attention for throwing them." That is *very different* from "kids will be kids, you don't understand." Those same people *will not allow* their child to damage other people's property. They *will* remove their child if their child is tearing up someone's home. They use techniques like time out. And amazingly, most of my friends are falling over themselves with apologies if their child so much as rolls its eyes. I'm much more relaxed than they are. And their childrearing just throws into sharper perspective the different approach of so many others.

I don't understand why some parents refuse to take *any* responsibility for their children's actions, and become aggrieved and in some cases aggressive if anybody expresses discomfort with having their property wilfully destroyed and their boundaries and values discounted. It is not the same as a child breaking something by accident or being noisy. Those are normal kid things.

Kids are so smart. Recently my brothers children visited for a few days. In his family, it's my brother who wears the pants. He follows through on threats, and what he says is generally "the law". His partner is less inclined to follow through, and my brother sometimes 'over rules' her (like I say, he wears the pants, I'm not saying it's right).

In my house, with my partner, when my partner and I are in sole charge of the children, I am in charge of matters to do with my brothers children. You should have seen their little faces the first few situations when this became apparent. I suppose they must have thought that all families worked like theirs.

They are so smart, they adapted instantly, and they work out how far they can push their limits in each situation, and their behaviour changes straight away .

Okay, obviously the word "restrain" has been quite the culprit in this thread and we all should be clarifying ourselves and taking care not to assume.

restrain place limits on (extent or access); "restrict the use of this parking lot"; "limit the time you can spend with your friends"
restrain hold back
restrain to close within bounds, limit or hold back from movement; "This holds the local until the express passengers change trains"; "About a dozen animals were held inside the stockade"; "The illegal immigrants were held at a detention center"
restrain to compel or deter by or as if by threats
restrain keep under control; keep in check; "suppress a smile"; "Keep your temper"; "keep your cool"

When I hear the word "restrain" on this thread, I think of straight jackets, yanking dogs around on chains and really pretty much bullying the child around. So, I apologize for having made that assumption, You know... it's kind of hard not to, given the disheartening attitude towards children and parents in general.

I do take offense to being lumped into a category with negligent parents, or my children associated with the behavior those listed on this thread.

I clarified in my posts that I agreed acceptable behavior needs to be taught, so I won't broaden on it.

So, if you don't want children, fine. There are no issues with that at all, and if people harp on you - tell 'em to go to take a flying leap.

But assuming all parents and children demonstrate this sort of behavior? Really NOT cool. Disrespecting responsible parents by bossing their children around? NOT cool. I'd jump down anyone's throat for telling my children what to do. And it wouldn't be pretty. It's disrespectful, and just because you had a bad experience (or even ten), I don't need to deal with blatant disrespect.

These children who are running around wild? Do they need physical restraint? Gosh, I don't know. It depends entirely on the parent/child relationship. If they were never taught how to behave, then maybe tougher measures need to be taken. But for my own children... seriously? I just hold up a counting finger. (123 OUT). I don't even need to say a word. And they STOP in their tracks. What do I do when I get to 3? They stand time out. Explanations delivered on #1 as needed, but in most cases, they already know.

My children will get out of line. Heck, they may knock over your wares or scream in a store in a moment of frustration. But I will deal with it.

People aren't born knowing how to keep their emotions and impulses in check. Heck, half the adults I know don't know how either. They need to be taught. Not bullied.

cntd...

This thread has gotten me really upset. It started off with a choice not to have children, and you know... that's totally okay. We all have a right to our decisions, and I think it's great that some people take pause and think about whether or not parenting is for them. Not enough people do.

ie. kids will be kids? Kids being kids entails running around mooing like a cow or making funny faces out the car window. Playing leap frog, picking their noses... all those crazy off the wall things kids do. Kids being kids does not include breaking people's things or being disrespectful. That's simply unacceptable.

Kids are people too. They deserve patience and respect. (Oh, if only I had a dime for every time someone cut in front of my boys in line when they run to the grocery store for me).

Thanks for the apology, but I need out of this thread.

Whoops... just wanted to clarify that I mean no disrespect to those here posting about frustrating experiences or the choice not to have children. I'm responding to the generalized distaste towards parenting and children in several of the posts, and trying to do so without pointing fingers. Probably not very effective this moment, but I'm a little upset.

.... back to your scheduled programming.

Zummard, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you. I do TOTALLY agree with everything else you have said...l;,

Naiyahayal,

For some reason your posts are coming off offensive. I know you said early that wasn't your intention, but each post they seem to be just the opposite of what you aren't wanting to do.

I understand you don't want children and you do teach class to two or three well behaved children BUT other than that all you've done is bad mouth mothers and children.

I grew up in a home where abuse was rapant. My mother slapped me, whipped me with swithches, belts, her hand, laddles, shoes, whatever she could reach. If I went ONE day without being hit I was grateful. That is the reason I never wanted to have children. I was SOOOOO afraid I would turn out to be like my mom. Isn't that what we are taught in school? Abuse is a circular cycle.
I am a FIRM believer in time outs when our son gets out of control (back talks, not listening, etc....) I will NEVER discipline him in the middle of Target, the groccery store or where ever else I may be. Public places are NOT the place to discipline. THat does nothing but embarrass the child and teaches them NOTHING. I will get in his face and tell him as soon as he gets home there will be no playing outside with his friends for _____ hours or minutes and he will have no game time.
And yes, it is VERY embarrassing for the parent when a child throws a tantrum in public b/c we KNOW EVERYONE is watching and thinking, "God, why can't she control her child."
Parenting isn't just sitting around the house all day with your children telling them it's wrong to cry in public, don't touch other peoples belongings, don't talk out loud, don't do this or that. Those are things you teach when you cross that bridge with your child. If they choose not to listen, than you discipline them. They learn that some actions bare consequences.