Thread: How many times can we b**h about undercutting?

I guess when I say "rock bottom price" I mean more along the lines of what Lauren has done with her rates site...she has quoted a few different "packages" that would be used in different situations. Those are still her "rock bottom" prices *for those situations*. And as far as travel surcharges, I don't think that's very unusual now...wedding photographers do it (while still quoting their base rates on their sites), even airlines and delivery services do it! If I were booking any service that was coming directly to me, I'm going to expect to pay over and above what the base rate is.

Samira's site is a great resource! And you guys are right, you can google and find these things. I'm also glad to see that other dancers are publishing their rates...I've generally found that that is not the case for other dancers I know, and I really do think making your rates a secret helps contribute to the undercutting problem. I'm NOT saying that absolves undercutters at all--they do have a responsibility to do their research--but I do think there are some small things we can do to help alleviate the problem, even though we'll never eliminate it altogether.

In my area it's not about being "new" I truely feel that these "dancers" are performance s***s (yes it is the word you think it is, I use the term for people who dance for free every place, run to every hafla they can sign up for without bothering to go to the workshop, and charge much much less than the going rate, or jump from studio to studio to take classes just at the time of the hafla coming up. It can go for students and "pros" as well), they want to perform so badly they will charge much less.

They have not put the effort into their training, costumes, and learning professional behavior standerds, they just do it because they feel it makes them a big time dancer, can't explain it! They don't FEEL they are worth it because sometimes (not always) they AREN'T.
Just a note to say: SORRY REALLY snarky attitude today.
About the original post, I feel for you, it STINKS! I know 'cause I live it! Trying to polite as you explain why you are unwilling to dance for 50 bucks to soemone who is saying so and so will do it for 50 bucks is tiring! But I am always polite, explain it, and wish them luck with their choice. (OK sometimes I do have a strange tone of voice on the last bit)

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

I guess when I say "rock bottom price" I mean more along the lines of what Lauren has done with her rates site...she has quoted a few different "packages" that would be used in different situations. Those are still her "rock bottom" prices *for those situations*. And as far as travel surcharges, I don't think that's very unusual now...wedding photographers do it (while still quoting their base rates on their sites), even airlines and delivery services do it! If I were booking any service that was coming directly to me, I'm going to expect to pay over and above what the base rate is.

Samira's site is a great resource! And you guys are right, you can google and find these things. I'm also glad to see that other dancers are publishing their rates...I've generally found that that is not the case for other dancers I know, and I really do think making your rates a secret helps contribute to the undercutting problem. I'm NOT saying that absolves undercutters at all--they do have a responsibility to do their research--but I do think there are some small things we can do to help alleviate the problem, even though we'll never eliminate it altogether.

Okay, but you did say "we all have the absolute lowest rate we will accept for getting out of bed and into costume. Why not publish that rate instead of making it a big semi-secret?"...that's not necessarily the same thing as a specified package price. It's also not necessarily an undercutting price. In any given dance market there should be a decent minimum. Many dancers are able to command well above that minimum. Anywhere in between is fair game for pricing, in my opinion. Only those that go below the market's minimum (aka the "I'll do a 30-minute show for tips&dinner" dancers) do I consider "undercutters"...but again, my definition and opinion.

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by Kimahri

Okay, but you did say "we all have the absolute lowest rate we will accept for getting out of bed and into costume. Why not publish that rate instead of making it a big semi-secret?"...that's not necessarily the same thing as a specified package price. It's also not necessarily an undercutting price. In any given dance market there should be a decent minimum. Many dancers are able to command well above that minimum. Anywhere in between is fair game for pricing, in my opinion. Only those that go below the market's minimum (aka the "I'll do a 30-minute show for tips&dinner" dancers) do I consider "undercutters"...but again, my definition and opinion.

~~Kimahri

Yes, definitely not arguing that I didn't say that. :) It just made more sense in my head (home sick today, brain function possibly impaired by lots of cold meds!).

I also agree with you that there is and should be an acceptable range that does not include dancing for your dinner but allows for better/more well-known dancers to charge more.

Update... I sat down with our manager tonight & discussed with him & am feeling much better. Nothing I need to quote on here or in public, in general, but I feel appreciated again, and reassured of my pricing. I can't do anything about anyone else, but I CAN do something about ME!!

Aww Sonja, I'm so sorry about undercutting . . . it's a terrible thing for another dancer to do, especially if they were trying to steal your job!! Were they trying to steal your job?

I'm going to say that I've seen this issue go on since I've been involved in some way or another with dance, and it doesn't seem likely that the problem will go away. I have utmost respect for the pro dancers but also feel for the new pros just breaking in.

What I always wonder is if the person who's undercutting is trying to get a job to make money or trying to somehow further her dance career or just simply wants to dance because she would like that expression we all feel when we dance. Knowing the motive may help to offer suggestions. Want money? Establish a venue (see below) . Want to just dance? How about hafla?

I do believe a lot of beginning dancers just do not know better, so it is good to try to educate them. But I also believe those who are going to do it are going to do it regardless of any kind of comments or discussion on bhuz. Even alienating themselves from the community since they may already feel outed for undercutting. 'well i'm going to do it anyways and screw what they think' etc

I believe there are different kinds of boundaries for what is fair related to keeping the standards of bellydance favorable for professional dancers but also providing a place for emerging dancers and emerging pros to get a foot in (but not at the expense of pro dancers who already work a gig) For example I don't think it's cool in any way shape or form if a dancer approaches a restaurant that already has a dancer and offers to dance for less.

But when it comes to establising a venue as a place to dance, say private parties which are so varied in length and style (wedding, birthdays, corp parties) , or how about non-traditional venues such as bookstores, coffee shops and nightclubs, I think there is a bit of leeway so long as the dancer who establishes it as a paying venue for dancers strives to get what 'we're worth' . In other words, if your local nightclub entertains the idea of letting you do an arabian night, you should be paid for it. Whether you are paid the same as someone who does a burlesque show or a music show or sings should be up to you to establish. When you go out and find your own place to dance and introduce, specifically, bellydance to the venue , besides representing bellydance in a professional manner , you should establish that it is a paid profession for PROfessional dancers . i don't think a lot of non-traditional venues know what to expect or how much to pay. Be prepared ask what their other hired entertainment gets paid.

By creating or establishing new venues to dance in and not just limiting paid work to restaurants and parties, it gives dancers who are turning pro a good opportunity to get in the door and not step on the toes of dancers who already have paid jobs (mostly likely if there are Moroccan style restaurants in the area they already have dancers and unless that dancer moves away or quits, it's likely to be filled forever. As more and more dancers turn pro we need more places to dance professionally. ('and please don't tell us non-pros to be happy dancing at haflas')

Am offering examples from both angles because I have been on both sides, I have been that dancer who was emerging into 'pro' and have also been that dancer who was getting paid regularly to dance, and also out there establishing new venues.

This age old issue also has totally different meanings depending where on the fence you are..a pro, a student, a business person, an artist. Just like with health care and taxing the rich it just depends on where you are as to what your perspective may be on it.

hope this makes sense am making pancakes right now

Originally Posted by jesennia

hope this makes sense am making pancakes right now

.w.: *is afraid*.w.:

..l;, it's not with a crock pot i swear!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

.w.: *is afraid*.w.:

Originally Posted by jesennia

..l;, it's not with a crock pot i swear!

Ah...carry on then! Just make sure you're charging full market value for your time.

Originally Posted by stkesler

Aww Sonja, I'm so sorry about undercutting . . . it's a terrible thing for another dancer to do, especially if they were trying to steal your job!! Were they trying to steal your job?

I don't think so at all. I'm not stingy with the job. Actually, I have cut MYSELF back to 1 night a month so i can focus on private events, stage shows, and upcoming competition. The manager has asked that I dance more, not less, but I just don't have time. I am quite open to other dancers performing, and I think everyone knows that. I think it's just a matter of new people being excited. I think (hope) it's all cleared up now. At any rate, the manager has indicated he's perfectly happy to pay my going rate and so I feel much better. As for private events, well, you do get what you pay for, and when people hire me, I go above and beyond with cards, balloons, etc... I also ask them to post reviews afterward, if they can, and I've gotten great reviews back, which is helpful over time. I'll survive. ..g.:

Ok, I read this and I have a somewhat silly question: does undercutting applies to costuming too?

I don't mean to open a can of worms. I am genuinely curious. There is one lady who was talking about putting together costuming booklets to sell here (which I would very likely buy bc I like to read everything I can get my hands on on that topic). So if I am sharing stuff and providing info to others on the boards (regardless of how dissimilar it might to that person's booklet) would it be considered like I am undercutting her? Likewise, if I happen to sell a costume I made out of spare parts that cost me very little in terms of materials, would it make sense to pass the savings on to a potential buyer or would it be considered undercutting?

I'm all for sharing and helping others any way I can, but I hate to think that by doing so I might step on someone else's toes.

Again, sorry if this is a silly question but inquiring minds want to know.

TIA,

Kem

maybe it's just underpricing yourself..which really there's no rules on what you price your items at and ask any dancer, they like a deal..but make sure in the process of making something you are paid for your work ..g.:

Thanks Jesennia. You know, it's something that I'm struggling with. My mom's a seamstress and she tells me to multiply the number of hours by the minimum wage in my area and to use that as a base price but it even at that mlow rate it seems so... much. I buy more things than I sell so I tend to view things more from the buyer's point than the seller's. (And I often forget to charge for "consumables" like interfacing, thread, etc... Then I get to the next project and I have to spend to replenish my supplies and I end up kicking myself for not charging more bc I end up under. *sigh* Flip side: I only work on projects I like. (Granted, I like a lot of stuff, the weirder the better LOL)

Originally Posted by kemintiri

Thanks Jesennia. You know, it's something that I'm struggling with. My mom's a seamstress and she tells me to multiply the number of hours by the minimum wage in my area and to use that as a base price but it even at that mlow rate it seems so... much. I buy more things than I sell so I tend to view things more from the buyer's point than the seller's. (And I often forget to charge for "consumables" like interfacing, thread, etc... Then I get to the next project and I have to spend to replenish my supplies and I end up kicking myself for not charging more bc I end up under. *sigh* Flip side: I only work on projects I like. (Granted, I like a lot of stuff, the weirder the better LOL)

High quality costume making is a skill. One should be paid for that skill. No one can live off minimum wage. So don't use minimum wage as your guideline for your worth. If your producing a high quality product then you should be paid as such. Personally I believe ten-twelve dollars an hour is a good start for a hourly wage....

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

High quality costume making is a skill. One should be paid for that skill. No one can live off minimum wage. So don't use minimum wage as your guideline for your worth. If your producing a high quality product then you should be paid as such. Personally I believe ten-twelve dollars an hour is a good start for a hourly wage....

That's a good point, Angela. Thanks. (Although some clients are very good about recognizing that. I had a lady giving me a 50$ tip once bc she was so happy and thought I didn't charge enough. ..l;,)

Originally Posted by kemintiri

That's a good point, Angela. Thanks. (Although some clients are very good about recognizing that. I had a lady giving me a 50$ tip once bc she was so happy and thought I didn't charge enough. ..l;,)

I always give a good tip to my seamstresses..... Plus it always helps when you have that emergency adjustment to be done..... ..g.:

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

High quality costume making is a skill. One should be paid for that skill. No one can live off minimum wage. So don't use minimum wage as your guideline for your worth. If your producing a high quality product then you should be paid as such. Personally I believe ten-twelve dollars an hour is a good start for a hourly wage....

In some theatre costume shops the pay is $25/hr...just food for thought.

Yeah, when I make jewelry for commission jobs I charge between $20 and $30 an hour. Same with my graphic design. My dad always taught me, "Start low, stay low."