Thread: How many times can we b**h about undercutting?

Answer....One more!!! ,m:: Yes, it's happening again. I won't go into detail, but all the same, I'm irritated. Just wanted to share. Now, pile on the outrage and encouragement, please .w.:

It will never stop. There will always be dancers who just want an audience or the cache of a professional gig and don't care about professional standards. There will always be people hiring who just want an attractive woman in a shiny costume and a good deal on price.

The dancer doing gigs for next to nothing will eventually recognize that it's work, it takes investment in costuming and music and ties up her weekends, and eventually she'll walk away... but there's always another one to take her place.

And the folks who hire them (regularly) will decide that dancers are flaky anyway, why pay a lot for one?

It's an ongoing part of bellydance (or any art employment, probably)

I wanted to add an interesting spin on this...

When many of my friends started (I was still kind of lurking in the background) - they were undercutters.

Why? Because our teacher at the time used to tell us, "the rates are XX". When the rates were really YYY. She would actually pass gigs onto us students at these low rates.

Why? Well - we have our own theories. One being that she did not want her students to make more than her. Two being that she kept us very sheltered and really did not encourage us to go out and meet other dancers and learn rates.

Now - i look back and realize that it was all our faults. We should of asked and got out there. Instead - we listened to our teacher.

The point I am trying to make is that some of these undercutters are just - well - fed the wrong information from people they trust.

Not saying they should do this or are in the right - just saying that it is up to the teachers in the community to properly educate their students..

the end...

There are some dancers who say for example: "I charge $200"
When they actually charge $150, just to try to get the gig.
I know one dancer who was dancing for free at one of the oldest Middle Eastern clubs in the country. A place that used to pay us well!

I'm tired of it. I know with the economy things ARE lowered. But...gigs where I once charged $300 dancers are charging $150!!!!!!

Musicians complain about the SAME thing...

I've been getting undercut A LOT lately. And my rates are already on the lower end of acceptable for my area! It's happening a lot - REALLY a lot - in the past few weeks. I think dancers are justifying it by saying it's the economy, but it's pissing me off royally. I can think of three recent gigs I know of that I lost because someone offered to dance for much lower.

i was just contacted by an event entertainment provider. He didnt' bat an eye at my rates. Either as a Tarot reader or as a belly dancer. Maybe I am not charging enough?

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I wanted to add an interesting spin on this...

When many of my friends started (I was still kind of lurking in the background) - they were undercutters.

Why? Because our teacher at the time used to tell us, "the rates are XX". When the rates were really YYY. She would actually pass gigs onto us students at these low rates.

Why? Well - we have our own theories. One being that she did not want her students to make more than her. Two being that she kept us very sheltered and really did not encourage us to go out and meet other dancers and learn rates.

Now - i look back and realize that it was all our faults. We should of asked and got out there. Instead - we listened to our teacher.

The point I am trying to make is that some of these undercutters are just - well - fed the wrong information from people they trust.

Not saying they should do this or are in the right - just saying that it is up to the teachers in the community to properly educate their students..

the end...

YES. I don't really blame the students in cases like these. Information is getting freer, with the internet, but most students would tend to take their teachers' word for it.

I don't think most undercutters are evil or deliberately trying to drive rates down. I think they're nervous about losing work, they have low self-esteem and don't think they're worth full-price for whatever reason, or they're misinformed about the going rate.

Not saying that justifies it -- undercutting is a huge problem in our industry and we need to keep fighting against it. I'm just saying that I don't think the people responsible are usually doing it maliciously. I think we can approach these people gently and work with them more effectively if we remember that.

until it stops (read as "forever")

It seems to happen in surges...and right now there is a surge here, too.
Keep up the "good fight" Sonja!

I think the best way to fight undercutting is with better marketing. If I were good enough with dance to try to get restaurant or other pro gigs, I would bring to the gig a DVD of me doing a performance, lots of photos, a brochure about me, a small token of appreciation for the owner, a full-nine-yards publicity pack.

Amateurs can charge cut rates, but they can't stand up to you (for long) if you truly put your best face forward. I theorize that once they see quality, their cut-rate dancer will look shabby in comparison.

At least, in an ideal world, that is how it would work.

Originally Posted by Psyche

I think the best way to fight undercutting is with better marketing. If I were good enough with dance to try to get restaurant or other pro gigs, I would bring to the gig a DVD of me doing a performance, lots of photos, a brochure about me, a small token of appreciation for the owner, a full-nine-yards publicity pack.

Amateurs can charge cut rates, but they can't stand up to you (for long) if you truly put your best face forward. I theorize that once they see quality, their cut-rate dancer will look shabby in comparison.

At least, in an ideal world, that is how it would work.

Normally I would agree but I think the downward spiral of the current economic situation has changed the game. It seems like right now price trumps EVERYTHING. It's not just students or the Suzy Nippletassels of the world competing to cut prices.

This past New Year's Eve was a shock....the first one in years where I didn't have multiple gigs, booked in advance, at the normal higher NYE rate. If anything, I was getting calls right up until Dec. 30th for people looking to pay staggeringly low amounts. Somehow overnight $75 became the new $250...never mind charging any higher for NYE! ..cr.:..c::

It's everywhere. I placed an ad on craigslist for a painter to do a bedroom and bathroom as we prep our house to go on the market. The ad only was up for about 5 hours and I got over 300 responses! I lost track of how many licensed/bonded and union painters with 10-20 years' experience were eager to offer to do the job for $10/hr!

While I wish having solid marketing and being the better dancer was enough I think we do have to be realistic about how the economy is affecting every business and walk of life....I mean damn, who ever thought they would need a bailout in Dubai??

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by ravenadesigns

I wanted to add an interesting spin on this...

When many of my friends started (I was still kind of lurking in the background) - they were undercutters.

Why? Because our teacher at the time used to tell us, "the rates are XX". When the rates were really YYY. She would actually pass gigs onto us students at these low rates.

Why? Well - we have our own theories. One being that she did not want her students to make more than her. Two being that she kept us very sheltered and really did not encourage us to go out and meet other dancers and learn rates.

Now - i look back and realize that it was all our faults. We should of asked and got out there. Instead - we listened to our teacher.

The point I am trying to make is that some of these undercutters are just - well - fed the wrong information from people they trust.

Not saying they should do this or are in the right - just saying that it is up to the teachers in the community to properly educate their students..

the end...

This so important. I think we should start a thread for teachers where we can post basic fundamental and sometime unspoken rules that are the responsibility of a teacher to pass on to their students.
I once performed right after a very well known dancer and she said she was going to sit in the audience to watch me. I asked her if she wanted me to hand her her coverup because the dressing room was really small and she didn't know what I was talking about. I must have seemed shocked and she told me that her teacher never told her about them and she was actually thankful to me for letting her know. She covered up with her veil and I have always seen her in a coverup since. I think her teacher did her a great injustice. So I bet there are lots of things teachers don't cover like going rates etc...

*sigh*. I know. You're right. And it sucks so bad, because the first thing to be hit is the arts, in many of its forms.

Don't lower prices! Continue to communicate with your community about maintaining prices. I don't think that now is the time for raising prices... but once we start down that slipper slope of lower rates they are REALLY hard to get back up.

Originally Posted by Psyche

I think the best way to fight undercutting is with better marketing.....

I agree with this.
I would ADD however not just "better marketing", but "make yourself more marketable". If things are a little slow use the time to make yourself have wider appeal. This can be in any number of ways: work hard with new songs, fix up your costumes, develop your makeup and hair look; work on your complete look. Don't do props? Pick up zills, cane, veil, shemadan, sword, tray or something to add options to your show and appeal to a WIDER CUSTOMER BASE. Take the time to research those obscure song translations. Start a language class or start home study (and find a language meetup). Go through your video collection again- if you haven't watched a video in a long time you will see it differently. Work on music editing of those songs you love but are just too lengthy. Re-vamp your website, get new and exciting pictures... there are any number of things you can do.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Don't lower prices! Continue to communicate with your community about maintaining prices. I don't think that now is the time for raising prices... but once we start down that slipper slope of lower rates they are REALLY hard to get back up.

This.
This is probably not the best time to give yourself a raise, but please don't lower your rates!
It's true that I lose gigs regularly to people who charge less, but the fact is it doesn't happen any more often then years ago when I was just starting out and charging only acceptable minimum for my area and the minimum rates around here have raised since then!
There are always going to be dancers who charge ridiculously low rates and customers whose primary concern is the lowest possible price. I don't spend my time worrying about those jobs that went to someone else just because they had a cheaper rate.

On a slightly more insidious note...in conversations with other dancers about rates to make sure we are not undercutting eachother, I have been told, "Well, I charge this amount for that type of show." only to find out they were charging less to get the job. To me this is just as bad, if not worse than simply undercutting. Misleading fellow dancers to quote higher rates to make oneself more marketable is just as horrible to the community at large.

Shaula,
There are girls who do this, no doubt.
Conversely (and also really insidious) there are girls who inaccurately accuse others of doing this, just so *they* can justify undercutting! Seriously! I had to offer to show paystubs from a contract and checks from gigs because of someone trying to justify her own undercutting and telling people I was lying about my own rates.

Oh that's just as terrible! Especially considering the research and efforts on your part to unify the community on rates. I cannot believe you were forced to go to such lengths to prove your point. What a shame, really.

Originally Posted by Shaula

Oh that's just as terrible! Especially considering the research and efforts on your part to unify the community on rates. I cannot believe you were forced to go to such lengths to prove your point. What a shame, really.

What's worse is she feels I was apparently snarky for offering to show the proof in black and white.
Shaula- thank you SO much though. Your post made me feel really good. So good in fact, I'll waggle my eyebrows at you. ..g.:..g.:..g.:..g.:

Have you guys ever heard this one? I had a student of mine try to hire me to perform at her family banquet hall - big party hundreds of people for the holidays. She asked for 2 shows. I offered her a student/friend rate of $275 which is cheap cheap cheap but I was trying to be nice because she had been my student for many years. She was horrified by this price which immediately raised some pretty red flags and mentioned that she was buddies with a couple of very famous BDSS'ers who she swore had agreed to dance at her parties with their troupes doing multiple shows for $100-150. Total lie. I know the ladies she mentioned and no way would they dance for that rate.
So now people are lying about other dancer's rates to try and get you to charge less.
I will say this - I have never come away from a party where I agreed to dance for less than my going rate feeling good. Every time I have danced for less than $150 I have really felt taken advantage of and kicked myself for agreeing to that rate. Customers don't realize how many hours it takes to get ready or how hard parties can be.

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

...
So now people are lying about other dancer's rates to try and get you to charge less.
...

Sounds like standard practice for some owners and for some party calls. It's terrible that it was your student, though!

Yeah I have been seeing a lot of this in Southern California too. I too do not charge less than $150 and used to get lots of jobs. Now I am not getting hardly any, because people are undercutting me, and there are less parties these days anyway to dance at.
And I too have noticed that people are lying about what they charge, claim they charge more when actually they charge less. Where is the integrity? I still have mine at least. I will not lower my fees just to get jobs. People don't understand that when they undercut you, they are ultimately hurting themselves because this will just lower standards and fees for everybody all around. It is true that once the fees go down it is difficult to get them back up. We were already underpaid as it was with all the time it takes to prepare, travel, and perform at events. People think you are only working for 30 minutes, when in fact it is hours and wearing expensive costumes, doing your hair and make-up and preparing the music. Yes it is a sad state of affairs I agree! But I will stand strong and will not go down to that lower standard for myself.

I live in San Diego, and I am charging $175 minimum and a lot more for bigger events, if there are clients that I have danced in the past I might go down $25 perhaps...but I tell them straight forward that I cannot go lower. I tell them my fees are in the going rate range for professional dancers.
I know I get calls sometimes from other dancers or their friends to check on prices, lately I have been getting a lot of students shopping around for dance classes, but yes economy affected the business and how much people want to spend for entertainment, but I have seen lately that those like you and want you, they pay what you are asking.

I try to tell everyone I know not to charge less

i'll agree with everyone, including the part about being one of those persons. I onced danced for waaaaaaaaay less than i should of. when i think about it now its ridiculous. i think it goes to a point of where i wasn't valueing myself very much but wanted to dance, so i was willing to dance for little. I know that in "my" community, no one gets paid well now, i think theres only one place that pays mildly well. everyone dances for little to nothing, and i stopped dancing about 2 years ago for this reason. I stated my price and it wasn't worth it to dance if i wasn't going to get paid my value.

I think we need to know what were worth. now i do :o) and i'm happy, and still the pricing in my area for private gigs as well, is horrrrrible!

There's always a good reason to b***h about undercutting. Unfortunately, it happens waaaaaaaaaayyy too often. But this has been going on for forever.

Two years ago, I was hired to dance at a restaurant where I had danced but two weeks before. It had been one of my regular gigs at one point, so the owner knew my prices, but I had other things going on in my life so the job kind of fell by the wayside. Anyway, I came in that night dressed and ready to work.
The owner (who was always and will always be an a-hole....no other word for him) told me he was waiting for another dancer, who had been in earlier that night to work the dinner shift. Since there were no customers for her to dance for during dinner, he had apparently invited her to dance the late set, without informing me of the change. He told me to wait and see if she would show. Needless to say, she never showed up. I went out and did my set after the insistence of a full house of customers and musicians.
I finished my set (the other dancer had still not arrived). He refused to pay me my full amount, stating if he had the other dancer, he would've paid her $25 less than what I charged. After I refused to leave without getting the full amount I was owed, he threw the money at me and told me to get the f*** out. I never worked there again.

Interestingly enough, he called me about three weeks later, desperate for a dancer because this other dancer had stood him up! I respectfully and with full dignity intact refused. :zillevil:

Customers should know that you get what you pay for. I have been in this business for ten years and am known for my professionalism. This other dancer....is not. Unfortunately, she is still in the business and continues undercutting. There's nothing you can do but stand firm on the prices you charge. You know what you are worth.

P.S. Sorry for the rant. I have no other outlet for this kind of thing. My husband refuses to listen to me anymore!!!

Several people have mentioned some important points we really should keep in mind about undercutting--it really is not always malicious. And we can say all day long, "New dancers need to learn what the going rates are!" but the fact is that it's not always as easy to discover as we might like to think it is. Sometimes teachers lie about the going rates. Sometimes other dancers lie about the going rates. Restaurant/club owners are trying to get the best price they possibly can. Not everyone knows about Bhuz. And, you know what? Most of us don't publish our base rates on our Web sites. And I understand why--every show is different and requires different pricing structures. BUT we all have the absolute lowest rate we will accept for getting out of bed and into costume. Why not publish that rate instead of making it a big semi-secret? You can add language that explains that this is the base rate and that it will change based on a number of factors. Yes, some people will see your Web site and say, "Well, I'm not paying that!" and you won't get that gig. But if they had called and you had told them your rate, you would have lost it anyway. Why waste your time and theirs? If we were this upfront and honest, people would not be able to lie about their rates (at least not as easily). Venue owners wouldn't be able to so easily play us against each other (you can go to X dancer's site and see that she charges more than a plate of hummus for a set). And new dancers would be able to make informed decisions about rates in their market.

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

And we can say all day long, "New dancers need to learn what the going rates are!" but the fact is that it's not always as easy to discover as we might like to think it is....

For many areas it's not that difficult either.
Standard rates and professional links and guidelines
belly dance rates

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

Why not publish that rate instead of making it a big semi-secret? You can add language that explains that this is the base rate and that it will change based on a number of factors.... And new dancers would be able to make informed decisions about rates in their market.

Sad to say...that many dancers still choose to undercut, even with the right information. I'd say that it's not usually malicious though. Sometimes it's lack of confidence, sometimes it's trying to be "nice" to an owner (who is taking advantage of them), sometimes it's strong enthusiasm about wanting to be out there overpowering their desire to support the community. I wouldn't call those things malicious. But no matter the reasoning or rationalization; the end results are the same.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Sad to say...that many dancers still choose to undercut, even with the right information. I'd say that it's not usually malicious though. Sometimes it's lack of confidence, sometimes it's trying to be "nice" to an owner (who is taking advantage of them), sometimes it's strong enthusiasm about wanting to be out there overpowering their desire to support the community. I wouldn't call those things malicious. But no matter the reasoning or rationalization; the end results are the same.

Yep. I totally agree. The "nice" thing comes into play here far more often than malicious intent. Especially when dealing with our manager, who really is a giant, sweet, kind-hearted teddy bear. I have to send out reminders that we're not taking food out of his family's mouth, that it's the businesses money, NOT the manager's pocket money!! It's hard to be firm sometimes, (for softies like me), but I know better (and my own instructor beat it into my brain NOT to undercut!!). Oh well, I am guessing this has been an issue for time eternal.

Do you suppose street dancers in ancient Egypt complained to each other about xyz's undercutting?

[QUOTE=GenevieveOfAtlanta;369751]Not everyone knows about Bhuz.
[quote]

I totally agree with you up to this point -- and 10 years ago I would have agreed with this as well. But you don't need to know about Bhuz to know about the internet, and google. Googling 'bellydancer price' just now I didn't have to go far to find some rates. I hold dancers a lot more responsible now that all the information in the world is a few clicks away.

A lot of us DO publish our rates, for exactly this reason. Including me. I'm sure there are about 10 other Bhuzzers who put their rates up at the same time I did, we all shared a page format for it!

My rates are on the lower side because I'm in a small city in flyover country, but here they are:
Belly Dance by Lauren and the Hips Afire Bellydancers

You'll see a similar format on lots of dancer's sites these days. So...ask and ye shall receive!

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

BUT we all have the absolute lowest rate we will accept for getting out of bed and into costume. Why not publish that rate instead of making it a big semi-secret? You can add language that explains that this is the base rate and that it will change based on a number of factors. Yes, some people will see your Web site and say, "Well, I'm not paying that!" and you won't get that gig. But if they had called and you had told them your rate, you would have lost it anyway. Why waste your time and theirs? If we were this upfront and honest, people would not be able to lie about their rates (at least not as easily). Venue owners wouldn't be able to so easily play us against each other (you can go to X dancer's site and see that she charges more than a plate of hummus for a set). And new dancers would be able to make informed decisions about rates in their market.

The problem isn't the people for whom your lowest rate is still too high. The problem is by publishing your rock bottom bare minimum rate you've now fixed that number as the "going rate" in the head of the clients who can afford you...and now you've got zero negotiating room.

Let's say Dancer A's official going rate for a private party is $250 for a 20-minute show and she adds extra if the show is outside an X mile radius. She sets her price for restaurant sets factoring in how many they want and if it's week to week or other length of booking. Her rock bottom "I'm not putting my good hair on for less than price" is $150 for a 10-minute bellygram-type show.

Scenario #1: Dancer A has no prices on her site, you have to call for a quote. When you do she gets the show location and if necessary adds the extra travel amount and gives the top price. Some clients book at the full $250+ amount. Others ask if she can do better, she negotiates a slightly shorter show for a little less money, client is happy they cut a "deal". Some ask what is her cheapest price, she books some bellygram-length gigs. Some get immediate sticker shock and hang up.
Bottom line? Most of the gigs she booked were well over the $150 rock bottom price.

Scenario #2 Dancer A publishes "Prices start at $150" on her website. Everybody that calls wants to know what they get for $150. She tries to sell the $250 show...some clients understand that more performing time is worth more money but many others say "that's okay I'll just take the short show" and others flat out balk at being quoted a price close to double the one on the website. For potential gigs outside her travel radius she then has to explain that there will be an extra charge for travel. Now the client is feeling nickle-and-dimed and she feels like she's fighting an uphill battle.
Bottom line? She will still book gigs but most of them will be at the $150 price point.

There's nothing wrong with a dancer publishing rates on her/his site but not the rock-bottom price. Selling is an art form all it's own!

~~Kimahri