Thread: saved per Langer's instructions

Some time ago I posted a complaint that another area group of "dancers" was using my name, Evansville Bellydance, and giving free classes, etc.

So I get a call today from a group I've worked with before (paying gigs) and they are confused because they have been in contact with another "member of our group" (!!!!) about the schedule, and well guess what -- the OTHER group is sliding into MY gigs because people are confusing the two of us.

They are scheduled to perform this Saturday at 10:00. We go on at 11:00. This should be interesting.

This is not a student group, although the kids are in their late teens. They are promoting themselves as an actual dance troupe now, and offering free classes. This is in direct conflict with what was, at one time, a local agreement among the area instructors that classes would cost x amount of money and nobody would teach regular classes for free.

So what's the best way to counter this? The legal advice I've been given has been basically "you won't win in court," because of specifics relating to the name/location.

The absolute LAST thing I want is people confusing my group with them.

Should I just change my name to something like Oriental Dance of Evansville, which is more to the point to begin with? I don't like using the name bellydance anyway, since it doesn't really mean anything.


For those of you who missed it last time, here is the bellydance they teach. And for free! This is what my potential clients see as "bellydance."

Welcome to Facebook

It seems reasoning with them re devising a name of their own might not be effective. Oriental Dance of Evansville would make sense to those familiar with MED but for someone new seeking entertainment the term oriental dance can be confusing. Many do not differentiate Oriental dance from the Far Eastern Oriental countries. Although probably not practical maybe The Original Evansville Bellydancers or something related to the original name, in order to keep things familiar.

use YOUR name ....no one can copy that! "aziyade of evansville ".....

I looked at that video. I just don't have the words.

I'm sorry this is happening to you and believe me, I feel your pain!

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

I looked at that video. I just don't have the words.

I'm sorry this is happening to you and believe me, I feel your pain!

Agreed. it was scary, actually....

Have you spoken to them about this? I am guessing that they don't see the problem because they call themselves the Evansville Bellydance Association, which they probably think is sufficiently different.

I agree with not changing your name - the GP doesn't know what Oriental Dance is, and it will hurt your (legitimate) business to take the "Bellydance" out of your name.

Originally Posted by zamora

use YOUR name ....no one can copy that! "aziyade of evansville ".....

Yeah, plus I think it's much better personal branding to use YOUR name rather than your region's name. A city or a region is large and ambiguous. Aziyade is a fabulous individual!

I am not on FB so I am unable to see the video. Your original name is easily identified and familiar. In your place I think I would proceed with my current name and advise former clients that your name has not changed. Of course it will be difficult re potential new clients but your reputation will outlast the newbies. As a possible way to keep details clear during the immediate future maybe consider using
Aziyade's Evansville Bellydance on promo material. From what I read above re the clip I doubt the confusion will last very long.

Originally Posted by zamora

use YOUR name ....no one can copy that! "aziyade of evansville ".....

I can't watch the video, but I am in total agreement with Zamora.

I like "Aziyade of Evansville"!

It would be hard to encroach on that!

I'm am sorry you are still going through this!

lol - just a few months ago I was going to try and get away from the "Aziyade" name and go back to my own (Amanda) but it IS somewhat original (at least for southern Indiana). I really wanted to brand the GROUP idea, but as I don't actually have a full out troupe, I suppose this makes the most sense.

It just feels weird to see AZIYADE'S anything. I guess I like hiding under the Evansville Bellydance canopy, so it makes me feel like I'm just one more dancer in the group. Guess I need to get over that. :)

I started to reply but it got long so I just sent it to you on FB.

I've got to say that video is both hilarious and scary at the same time. I personally will go with Showtime's suggestion: Aziyade's Evansville Bellydance. It allows you to keep your already branded name, while differentiating between whatever the heck that other group is. Be proud of your name--you've worked hard for it!

I think we all deal with six week wonders to varying degrees (I've had my fair share of that type of trouble), and the downright arrogance that comes with it...
but I have to say that most of even the six week wonders I've seen are doing something that you might vaguely identify as 'bellydance'. That video is...I don't even know if that's even *dancing*, let alone any specific kind.

I agree that using Aziyade is probably the best way to solve this problem. Sometimes I wish that there were an army of Bhuzzers in every city. We could all support each other!

I agree with what everyone else has said. Keep your name as close to the original as possible. I couldn't even watch that whole video. So sorry. :(

What if someone remembers a performance of yours from a while ago and they go to look you up but find that other troupe instead? They will probably assume that the other troupe is your group if you change the name completely, which is something you wouldn’t like.

I like the idea of adding a word to your brand, such as your name like many other suggested. If you don’t want to use your name, perhaps you could use “original” or another descriptive word?

I’m sure anyone at that show when all of you perform will cease to confuse the two groups. (That other organization does belly dance?)

Using a variation of your established name makes the most sense as per the above postings. Suhaila changed her website to TheRealSuhaila.com then SuhailaInternational.com (I think that is correct). Similar enough but designates the actual website.

Aziyade's "Original" Evansville Bellydance! lol

I think this weekend when we perform back to back I will announce us as The Original Evansville Bellydance. We do date back to about 2004, although under a name that was completely incomprehensible.

I started Facebook pages for all the variants of the name. Now off to Godaddy :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

Should I just change my name to something like Oriental Dance of Evansville, which is more to the point to begin with? I don't like using the name bellydance anyway, since it doesn't really mean anything.

I certainly don't have a window on their motivation, but what happens if they are intentionally trying to ride your coattails, and decide they now need to change their name to "Oriental Dancers in Evansville"? You've built up a customer base and a reputation with the name you already have, and if customers are getting confused, then you need to step up your PR, not pick a different name that confuses them even more. You don't want people looking for you, not finding you, and thinking they must have mis-remembered the name because the other group sounds similar. Add on to your name ("Evansville Bellydance with Aziyade" or "Amanda Presents Evansville Bellydance" or "The Original Evansville Bellydance Society" or something), but keep the keywords intact.

They are scheduled to perform this Saturday at 10:00. We go on at 11:00. This should be interesting.

At least, they are opening for you instead of the other way around. If you really want to be a snot about it, slip the announcer $20 to make sure they introduce you by saying how long you've been performing and mentioning that you aren't affiliated with the previous group.

Hold your ground. Would Dina change her name if another Dina started dancing in Cairo?

I definitely like the idea of adding The Original to the title name! I also like adding Aziiyade's to that...but I would worry that is more confusion. Add it after about a year or so tho!

Oh! Est. 2004 underneath title is always good. I do put an Est. 1993 under my group name.

For those of you who missed it last time, here is the bellydance they teach. And for free! This is what my potential clients see as "bellydance."

Welcome to Facebook
oh no that is aweful, they watched a lot of shakira video's apparently and thought that they could teach bellydance... SMH

OMG, did you guys read the meeting news and events page they have....The Evansville Bellydance Association* - Meetings, News, & Events
[ If anyone is interested in buying some real bellydancing clothes (which you don't really need), they sell them at Exotica (18+), Treasures and Pleasures in Newburgh, and at Nirvana in the mall. Nirvana has coin belts in every color, but they're a little expensive.]

If you want to buy real bellydance clothes they sell them at Exotica???????? oh no


I say i like the idea of having ur name with ur business but change ur name fast you do not want to associate with this free class giving "bellydance Association"

Just curious. Have you had a conversation with their organizer? Is she aware of you or is she just completely oblivious. If there isn't any intentional bad blood, perhaps a coffee meeting might be in order?

And for whatever it's worth, a quick google search for evansville belly dance doesn't bring up their site at all. It looks like they are using a free site anyway. So hopefully anyone looking for you won't find them...online, anyway.

They know me. :) They are sort-of quasi-affiliated with the ex-students of mine who I had so much trouble with, who teach at the porn shop (Exotica).

I know people monitor our comings and goings, and where we are dancing. I have to advertise that, but it leads to undercutting issues and weak attempts to displace our paying jobs.

(The undercutting thing is a whole different issue. I teach in a city for $10, one of this group or the other disgruntled pair teaches for $5 or for free. Even if I wanted to be crappy about it, I can only "steal their gigs" by dancing for free. Not interested.


And of course what really cheeses me off is that I really DO have to advertise I teach and perform "bellydance" -- I would SO love to divorce what I do from that term.

Aziyade,
I've been reading your thread and I sympathize with your frustrations, but I have a question. Maybe this is off-topic, but since you brought it up I'll ask.

How would changing the name of what bellydancers do improve the problems of undercutting, etc.? I've never linked the issue of the name of the dance to undercutting because it seems to me that people who are unethical in a dance form with one name are going to be unethical no matter what the dance form is called.

Have you actually tried threatening them with a C&D? I agree, you probably wouldn't *win* in court but if you were able to make it sound sufficiently serious and grumpy they might back off. Simultaneously, keep BD and Evansville in your business name, as well as adding Aziyade, and make a really big point of using words like "REAL" and "professional" and "highly trained" and "established 2004" so people know that with YOU, they learn REAL belly dance from a person who has been teaching for years and knows what she's talking about.

WRT to Suhaila - it's a different issue because she's hitting a market that already knows who she is. Her market is belly dancers. Aziyade's is the GP who might want to hire a BDer or learn some moves.

Originally Posted by rachelw

Aziyade,
I've been reading your thread and I sympathize with your frustrations, but I have a question. Maybe this is off-topic, but since you brought it up I'll ask.

How would changing the name of what bellydancers do improve the problems of undercutting, etc.? I've never linked the issue of the name of the dance to undercutting because it seems to me that people who are unethical in a dance form with one name are going to be unethical no matter what the dance form is called.

I don't think she's intending to associate the term "belly dance" with undercutting. I think she's saying she has a few problems.
1) Undercutting is a problem
2) Public perception in her city regarding belly dance is a problem
3) Confusion between the name of her business and this other group
4) She'd prefer to not use the term belly dance at all, but realizes she needs to for marketing reasons.

And it seems that the other group contributes to these problems because they:
1) Undercut and steal gigs,
2) Promotes belly dance in a negative light which adds to a negative public perception
3) Promote themselves with a similar and competing name that is close to what she uses.
4) They also use the term belly dance, although it doesn't appear that they really teach belly dance.

And it looks like she is addressing the problems by
1) Not undercutting and not publicizing her gigs (so there's no risk of them getting stolen)
2) Continuing to promote belly dance in a positive light
3) Asking for advice on how to adjust her marketing to address the confusion the other group is causing.
4) considering the use of other terms.

gracious...sorry if I'm being anal. Lots of issues in this thread, thought I'd sum it up so I could wrap my own head around it.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Have you actually tried threatening them with a C&D? I agree, you probably wouldn't *win* in court but if you were able to make it sound sufficiently serious and grumpy they might back off.

I agree with this approach. A cease and desist might be the best way to do this.

If that was their advertising of ANY kind of dance it would still be pitiful. That...truly...was...terrible dancing. Painfully bad. I couldn't stop giggling.

Go with the name change as suggested. You definitely do not want to be confused, and the fight wouldn't be worth it. Now that everybody is apparently thinking that They are You, you should desert that sinking (and stinking) bellydance moniker.

some ideas..

I understand what the issue is but you are going to lose business when you change your name - due to confusion by old clients. Also - what is going to stop this other troupe from changing their name.

Some ideas - position yourself as being the only professional group and the "real" group. I remember Suhaila doing a "the REAL Suhaila" advertisements for a while.

Maybe you can position yourself as..ideas....

Evansville Bellydance - Evansville's ONLY professional Dance
or
The REAL Evansville Bellydance

Do a marketing campaign..use the terms Professional and REAL to identify your group as being the one. Also - push how long you have been in the area like...

Evansville Bellydance - 5 Years of Professional Dance in Evansville

I say - keep your name and just position yourself as being the "REAL" bellydance.

As a long-time marketing professional with an MBA under my coin belt, here's my input....

First, I don't like using "Evansville" in the name because it's almost impossible to trademark/brand due to being the city's name. You'd have a weak argument in court if you tried to stop her from using "Evansville" and "belly dance" in her name.

I think it's better to use terms in your business name that are easier to defend as being your personal unique brand.

You say you're conflicted over whether to use "Aziyade" in your business name. My vote is no, don't. Use "Amanda". First, you've told us more than once in the past that you're not especially fond of the name "Aziyade" and kind of wanting to retire it. Second, "Aziyade" would be a difficult name for members oif the public to remember, and that makes it bad as a brand name. In branding, the whole point is to cultivate name recognition.

So, here's what I would do:

First, I'd come up with a new name that's not so generic-sounding as "Evansville Bellydance," and I'd trademark it. Maybe "Bellydance by Amanda", or anything else that pleases you. Then, for some time period, whatever it takes to shift your brand recognition (maybe a few months), I'd use the new name as the primary, while appending the old in smaller letters. For example, "Bellydance by Amanda" in a large font, and then in a smaller font (the original "Evansville Bellydance").

It doesn't matter that you're trying to blend into the group when performing. Honestly, what makes your business unique and differentiated from anybody else in town is YOU, whether you're identifiable when performing with the group or not. Your knowledge, your promotional efforts, your reputation, your choreography, your teaching methodology, etc. There's nothing wrong with branding the business under your name. It shows whose artistic vision is behind it all.

Over time, I'd phase out the "Evansville Bellydance" name. As quickly as possible, actually.

In corporations, it's pretty normal for a brand name change to be phased in rather quickly, within a matter of 2-3 months at most. The last two times I was involved with a corporate re-branding effort, we basically made the switch-over to the new name in just a month. It's okay to mention the old name in your dealings with people who knew you under it (such as the people you have worked with in the past to arrange performances), but I think you'll want to dump the old name pretty quickly. You're not benefiting from the current confusion.