Thread: Huh?

Originally Posted by Sashy

Anybody who puts a video of themselves on any public place on internet should be ready for all kinds of comments.And that`s not limited to bellydancing.If not prepared for that,just don`t put it out on the web.As much as it can sound harsh,it`s the truth of placing a video out in public for the whole World Wide Web to watch.

I agree. However, bhuz is not the general public, per se. It's people informed about what it is to be a dancer, has loads of teachers, hobbyists, musicians, etc.

Let the general public behave that way. While in no way wanting to tell anyone how to behave, I would be mortified to find a group of people educated in what I do treating my performance this way.

This person did not come on this forum asking for critique. In any way shape or form. I just think that some of the comments are hurtful and I would hate to be the subject of them.

Given that people perceive things differently and might be able to hear a critique, would you rather have that person label bhuz as full of "jealous h8ters" or come on here and actually learn something about the dance?

While i fully respect all those dancers who put their clips up there on the web for everybody to see,the one in particular on this thread had quite some stuff to be critized for,and nothing else from what is there to see is being talked about:her dance and costume.
Having said this,nooo,i would never put a clip of myself up there to see.I don`t even have one yet,but since i dont want to see coments,then i wont ever put one.
I can say i understand the feeling,since i come from a family in which i happen to be the only one who is not or has ever been into the entertainment industry,but have had many occasions to learn the way it is.

Originally Posted by kina

having gone through multiple hurtful comments on a video of mine, I will only add this to this thread.

This is a dancer.

According to others reports, this is a costumer.

What I know, this is someone who put herself out there, for good or for ill, but how would you feel if it were you and you came across this thread?

Kina, thank you for saying this. I was hoping the hurtful comments would diminish after I supplied the identity and some background of the dancer in the clip. I tried to provide this information so that we could all understand where this dancer might have been coming from, in her dance and obvious design creativity. She is one of us!

Everyone, it's perfectly ok to hate a performance. Oh my goodness, I have seen clips and performances in person that have made me want to retch! But truthfully, I would like to enter into more discussions where those participating are trying to be more constructive with their criticism. If Nera had posted this herself on Bhuz asking for feedback, would everyone have had the nerve to be so rude to her?

Not too long ago, Annwyn posted her YouTube clips here and got some great feedback. Let's maybe try this with Nera's clip. So, what did you like about her dance?

I'll start. I think her makeup and color choices were very flattering. I was happy to see her smile a couple of times rather than have permanent "concentration face". And the other thing that I totally admire her for? She saw that drum solo through to its end, despite the lack of chemistry between the audience, drummer, etc. I don't know what I would have done in her case-maybe try spinning to end the solo early and gotten the heck off the stage? ..l;,

Alright, I'm out-it's snowing and Christmas Day-time for me to go cook something yummy. Peace and love to all!

If you're going to belly dance in garter belts then I think you should be ready for the commentary.

BTW, I refuse to do warm and fuzzies for someone who clearly represents the opposite of the kind of respect and regard we typically say we want for this dance form. My brain can't be that "two faced"

No..janie doesnt get a gold star for just breathing in and out.

It was bad. She decided to place it in public view and available for public comment, so I feel free to post my opinion. I have refrained from much comment on the dancing as that is a hard won skill and we all do the best we can. But the costume choice was a simple matter of taste. Bordello Belly is in bad taste. It is the Western version of the "harem as pleasure palace" and that concept is an anathema to me. MHO ...ok...not so humble...

no one said anything about being two faced. My comments are these:

1. Constructive criticism, or is it bashing?

2. Opinion is subjective. everyone has one.

I've seen brand new dancers make mistakes and grow and learn from them. I do not in any way see this persons performance as a well thought and interesting interpretation of the music. But it's how she chose to represent herself. I would choose to give her constructive critique rather than say, focus on her quivering thigh as the camera person (over whom, presumably) this person did not have control.

I think the costume is offensive. I know that the tribal people like the garter style, but I don't and this is a particularly unattractive (to me) version. I also didn't care for the dancing, it didn't look like much at all, much less any kind of fusion.
The whole package is not something I think most belly dancers would ever think of as something they want to see at their belly dance show.
But this is a free country, so she can put it up there, be proud of it, and we are just as free to dislike it because she's put it up there and we've all viewed it.
You know the old saying about opinions and ********, we've all got one!

I have an ex husband...so I have 2.

I'm feeling the same thing you are Kina -- the temptation to participate is strong, there's a lot to say, but I don't see the point in dragging individuals into our forum and trashing them.

If she'd asked for feedback I'd give it.

I won't tell anyone else how to behave, y'all have a point about the total disrespect for our art form, too. But I'm not participating this time.

I get what you guys are saying. I won't change my earlier post, however as I feel too strongly about double standards.

Now, that said, I wonder how much feedback this person would actually want. I seem to have noticed that those who do the more adventurous stuff, are those who are most convinced of their own fabulousness - they don't necessarily want feedback because they are only concerned with their own need to express themselves and their art.

You can read that in a derisive way if you like, but I'm saying it matter of fact. I don't personally operate that way, but lots of people do. Plenty of good arguments for it and against it of course.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm feeling the same thing you are Kina -- the temptation to participate is strong, there's a lot to say, but I don't see the point in dragging individuals into our forum and trashing them.

If she'd asked for feedback I'd give it.

I won't tell anyone else how to behave, y'all have a point about the total disrespect for our art form, too. But I'm not participating this time.

The ones I dislike are the ones who do weird performance art and then try to defend it with Critical theory. See, now, I'm in grad school, I know about Foucault, so there!

:)

I was a bit surprised to learn that she's a costumer, although the general crafting of the bustle looks well done I wonder about other choices she's made.

Because I costume a little, I'll critique that.

The garterness doesn't bother me, or that strange bustle, but I'd prefer to see it on someone who is doing more fusion than she is because I would then be able to understand why the alternative costume was being used. You put that to brassy-er more aggressive music that harkens to burly or can-can or naughty cabarets...it would seem more fitting. Music should inform the motion and the costume.

I think the bustle would make far more sense if it were used to accent her hip movements like if she ever turned around and did hip accents with her back to the audience. As is it just isn't used to full effect...she sits on it.

I'm not so happy with the fringe.

If you're going to strip down a costume you need to make sure that the parts that you do keep make sense. If you attach a bustle, use it. If you are going to fringe the bra it makes more sense to move that fringe up onto the bra cup where it's going to move with shoulder and chest movements, not place it under the cups where it just moves a bit with your body in general.

I think the lace-up back makes the bra seem more interesting and exciting that it would with out, but I'd like to see the lacing also incorporated with the belt, perhaps on the side or above the garter bets in the front (probably faux lacing there so she wouldn't expose skin needlessly) or laced arm decorations instead of the belted wrist things.

Be wary of crotch fringe if it hangs lower than your costume crotch! I was iffy here. If her bra fringe choices had brought my eye up a bit I wouldn't have fixated on the crotch fringe.

The costume Rachel Brice meets river fisherman meets Burley meets good solid fashioned lingerie bra and suspender belt.
Trying to do industrial robotic belly dance often results in blurring of skills ( I don't think she totally lacked them)if you aren't Rachel. Can I start a D(etractors) of R(rachel) B(rice) W(annabee) movement?
Moves I hated :the quivering open leg..er..ditch that ,love, looks like the medication wore off?
Putting that togther with a solo drummer...er...strange.
I think think push the boundary fans would have loved it with suitable music and she would have danced that style better and the setting was all wrong. Had you seen that to the right music in a night club, some would love it..not me but I am old dinosaur as you know.
Cruel comment on Youtube...well put it up there and that's what you get, your mates praise you and your detractors go for the jugular ( which is why some of us don't dare)
Every Youtube bellydancer who has had nasty comment could always reconcile with the fact that folks post nasty things about Dina!

..c:: .w.: Why isn't she wearing a skirt? ..c:: Pants? ..c:: ..c:: Couldn't focus on her dance at all, was mentally trying to fix her costume.

I can't say I would wear the costume, but I don't hate it. It looks very similar to a lot of tribal costumes that are in. I guess it depends on the audience and venue.
I just wouldn't feel comfortable flashing that much skin.

I bought some pants from her at a local festival (fly pants) and I found them very well made and worth the price, so I went ahead and bought a little wrap around shirt. So so so cute. I get tons of complements on her stuff and even turned my ballet teacher onto her. If your interested here's her website:

Flash Page Careful, there's music on the first page.

If you cant blind them with brilliance...baffle them with bull****... Its so much easier to get lots of attention with your costuming than it is with your dancing. Much less work! Sometimes I think that is what drives the odd stuff I see out there. If you want to create a lot of spin that gets you noticed fast, do something odd and tasteless. Bordello Belly anyone?

I agree with Kina. There is a difference between constructive criticism, or polite disagreement with the creative elements presented, and simply mocking someone for the sake of tearing them down. I have seen performances that were a far less flattering representation of "bellydance" than this one. I didn't enjoy the video, nor would I choose to wear that costume myself. I think everyone has a right to say whatever they want and I think it's great that we debate things like the limits of fusion but there's no reason to insult anyone personally and I think this thread is skirting the edge of doing just that.

did anyone read the comments on the youtube page? I'm not sure, but it looks like she posted the video herself.
check out the comments.

If you are going to be out there with the costume, better have the dancing/performing part down. It isn't a costume I like or think is flattering, but I've seen lots of ugly more straight forward sparkly bra and belt sets too. She's probably a new dancer, or at least doesn't look very accomplished. I danced in student haflas once too. I just had the good taste not to post the videos.

I know Kina, it's hard to *not* say something, but it is also so cruel to be critical - especially imagining if the dancer saw these comments. She probably did work really hard on that. There's a fine line there to be walked. We all have strong feelings about what's right, or wrong in the dance.

I remember being somewhat embarrassed and somewhat honored when my mannequin won I think it was 3rd or 2nd place in the ugly mannequin survey/contest here on bhuz. I was like, gee, I thought she was kinda cute...oh well. She was vintage, and I sold her for a good price. She will no longer haunt Ebay, but be honored as she should be by a vintage collector...so I suppose there's a place for everyone and everything. :)

But in this case...what's a dancer to say? I guess 'it's not what I would choose to do/wear' ? Should we ignore it and write a lot more about what costuming *is* appropriate? Distribute that information door to door? *L* Add more info about how to construct a proper bra? Perhaps I could add that to the articles section. But seriously...I sympathize with you and commend you. It's a harder and much more noble thing to not join in on the uninvited critiques, in consideration of other's feelings.

You people seriously haven't seen garter pants before? They've been around for years, since before Rachel Brice was famous even. It's definitely not a look for everyone (nobody needs to see that part of my body highlighted, for example) but some people manage to pull it off well. In this case, I think the bustle and the garter pants did not work well together.

Before reading Kina's comment but after watching the clip my thought was "this poor newbie dancer is going to get jumped all over for questionable costuming choices and for not fully having a handle on what makes belly dance belly dance, and that's kind of sad." After reading what Kina and others have said, I still feel that way. If this person is a self-professed costumer, it's valid to critique the design and how well it's suited to her body type. But her dancing came off as more enthusiasm than knowledge, and which of us has never been in that position before? Yes, if you're on YouTube you are putting yourself out there for criticism, but that doesn't mean every viewer has to respond like EthnicArtsPromotion...

eek,r:; i rather like the costume if worn for the right venue..i wouldnt show up for student night at marrakesh with it but i once danced a show with burlesque dancers at an AIDS benefit in San Fran it would have been perfect for..

that troupe de mondo or groove de monde? Kaya and Sadies troupe? they once danced at Rak west wearing not much more than feathers and were much more cheeky about their sexy poses..but that's another day

pic
http://www.saqra.net/rakkasah/w2k5ph...4_JPG_view.htm

i adore garters but need a pair of fishnets to cover my cellulite that is migrating :)

Originally Posted by catwomyn

There seems to be a huge movement towards what I'd call vaudeville dancing or Vegas club dancing that's stilll being called bellydancing.

ahem...just speaking up on the behalf of the Las Vegas bellydance community here. Las Vegas bellydancers keep struggling over and over again to rise above the aforementioned references. We have a thriving community here that is NOT based on club dancing.

I realize your comments were not directed towards Vegas dancers...but the Vegas stereotype is one that our extremely talented professional belly dancers who live and perform in Las Vegas have to fight all the time. ,f::

...now back to your regular thread...

I'm with Kina, Kim Sakkara, Lauren_, et al. Why grab someone's video and drag it in here just to trash her choices? If she brought it here herself and asked for a critique, great, but why take the time to go find something you can't stand to watch, bring the video here and then talk bad about her? That does no one (not even the art form) any favors.

I'm taking a break from another belly dance forum for just this (and similar) reasons. Let's spend our time to improving ourselves, building each other up, strengthening our art, and hey, let's throw some shopping for sparklies in there, too.

A.C.

ok......I'll say this the dancing was not bad in my opinion but the costume.....lets just say i don't hate it but.....its a costume I think u would wear around ur other half*husband/boyfriend* behind closed doors and curtains....not in front of an audience of people, in my opinion. That is all I am goin to say on this.

Constructively:

I didn't understand what the costume had to do with the music or movements.

If there was more information posted about the performance maybe some people would be more forgiving. I know a lot of bellydance costumes that show just as much skin, so I'm not offended by that.

I have had people put up videos of mine, without my permission of me doing experimental stuff. It was nothing like this and I eventually got them removed but I wished the poster had stamped a big "experimental" across the vid.

As for the dancing. Drum solos are not about being soft and flowy-which is what she was for most of the time. They are about showcasing strength and shimmies. Grabbing those accents and showing the drum who is the boss.

I also felt that the yoga/acrobatics had awkward transitions and I felt her center of gravity was off at some points. Yes, bridges can be difficult for the general public but do they belong in a bellydance routine, I'm not so sure.

I'm on the wagon with Kina. I'd have to say constructive crit is best. Not that the person criticized can take it any better. Any criticism, even the slightest, kindest can be hard... even if it's from a friend - someone you love...

On that note ...

I dig the costume! I'd love to try it on! Dance around a bit. Take it for a test spin, shimmy, shake or two. It is a hot number!

However, I would agree that to dance publicly in this costume, and to dance as such, it would be best to title the dance properly as something other than Middle Eastern Dance, Raks Sharki, or Belly Dance.

I didn't dig deep into the YouTube file, but perhaps this dancer did provide a bio statement in which she announced herself as a student dancer (whether at the event or on YouTube), fusing such and such ....

one can always hope?

I will post here as well...mea culpa

The comments I am having guilty second thoughts about making were on another thread. Comments on an obviously baby dancer in a youtube clip. I refrained from comments on her dance, as she appeared to be new, but I did comment on her costume..as it has become my own hobby horse to ride of late. "Bordello Belly" as I have dubbed it.

I can't believe nowhere in this thread did anyone mention the crassel.