Thread: Up or down on the beat?

From what I gather, this confusion seems to be caused mostly by advice given by different percussionists. I would like to ask why take advice on dancing from percussionists, unless they are also dance teachers themselves?

I studied iqaat sharqiya (Oriental Rhythms) with Elias el Damouneh, who teaches at the Lebanese Conservatoire. I am no Souhail Kaspar by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm a decent percussionist and have good enough grasp of the theory to offer (I hope) a decent clarification.

Egyptian and Lebanese use a lot of common rhythms unless the music is something folkloric - mainly;

Saidi (Egyptian) Dum tek teka Dum Dum teka tek teka,

Al Soudasi (Lebanese) Dum teka teka Dum Dum teka teka Dum Dum teka tek teka,

Al muthalath al Iraqi (Iraqi, obviously) Dum Dum Dum tek Dum teka tek teka. (you can hear this rhythm used in older Egyptian compositions)

Otherwise, you will hear mostly:

Masmoudi Saghir, Maqsoum, Masmoudi Kbir, Malfuf, Wahda Kbeera, Wahda el Mijwzi (I suspect Egyptian percussionists have a different name for this one)

Whether you should go 'up' or 'down' on the beat, or the dum, etc is personal opinion. It doesn't matter if the advice is from a percussionist who is Egyptian or Lebanese - that's not a relevant issue. Their opinions don't differ because of nationality - it's because they arbitrarily came to their own conclusions, most probably thinking what instinctively looks right to them. They are drummers, not dancers!

Learning rhythms should help you become a better dancer - don't let tips from well-meaning percussionists confuse you and as a result hold you back. As long as you know where the rhythm begins, you'll be fine. It will show if you meant to accent upwards or downwards or sideways at the start of the rhythm (which isn't always necessarily a 'dum' by the way) or whether you just missed your mark. Learn the common oriental rhythms, and try to listen for them in your favourite pieces. Then, listen to unfamiliar pieces to challenge yourself and train your ear better.

Watch Tahia breeze through this Masmoudi Kbir (8/4) variation in the intro

DUM-teka DUM-teka TeKA TeKA DUM teka teka tek teka teka tek teka

This is a really commonly-used rhythm in Arabic music, and I've seen dancers who feel like they have to race to 'keep up' with it. And you would have to race if you were going to mark every 'dum'!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYI8h2gR9x4]YouTube - TAHIA CARIOCA (1915-1999)[/ame]

She is acknowledging the rhythm, but she isn't fixating on rigid ideas like up or down on the dum. She's comfortable with the music and doesn't act as though the next measure were going to take her by surprise and that she'd better hurry to 'catch' it and do something dramatic or obvious for each and every measure. You should only do that if you want it to look like you're counting!

I also wish to add:

If a teacher tells you to do something a certain way, he/she should be able to give a logical answer as to why, and even better - a convincing demonstration if possible. Never accept responses of the 'because I said so' variety; I think it's taken for granted that that is a fair-enough response in this field. It shouldn't be!

Suha, thank you for all this detail. I do drum and know the rhythms fairly well. The courses I took with Souhail other than drumming and riqq classes included a "rhythm & movement" one a few years back, where local dancer Angelika Nemeth demonstrated while Souhail drummed for the class. This is where I first learned the down-on-dums and up-on-tecs theory...I think Souhail has since been touring with this concept.

My courses with Gamal were specifically to work on phrasing & dancing with live music, but he always wanted me to "lift" or "step into" the beginning of the phrase (which was nearly always a dum). Although he'd drummed for Fifi, Lucy, Dina, blahblahblah, I still felt what he was teaching was "wrong" according to what I'd learned before.

But, it seems to me that in the sections where Tahiya does mark the beginning of the phrase, she often does it with some sort of lift or outward movement. I've been watching her all day on YouTube, as that's all I have at the moment; I watched Afrita Hanem three times the other day and caught Samia doing the same in her "seductive" scene.

I understand that dancing is much more than rhythm. But, when bopping to non-ME music (except for funk) I keep the beat in a downward motion. What I'm wondering is if you tend to keep the beat the same way?

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

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YouTube - TAHIA CARIOCA (1915-1999)

She is acknowledging the rhythm, but she isn't fixating on rigid ideas like up or down on the dum. She's comfortable with the music and doesn't act as though the next measure were going to take her by surprise and that she'd better hurry to 'catch' it and do something dramatic or obvious for each and every measure. You should only do that if you want it to look like you're counting!

This is a perfect example, thank you Suha..g.:

Suha! I loooooooove that clip of Tahiya! Now THAT is the essence of Egyptian dance!

Not to hijack the thread, but I also have a quick question for you...there is a debke rhythm that sounds almost the same as sa'idi; the main difference is that there is no DUM on 1 - I believe the first DUM comes between 1 and 2. Am I making sense? Is there a particular name for this rhythm? If you could let me know I'd appreciate it.

Also...how often do you come to the US to teach, and when is your next visit?!

Nisaa

But there are certain movements or combinations that are generally done with the beat a certain way.

Hip drops where you release your foot every other one (I call them beledi hip drops) -- these are pretty much always down on the downbeat and up on the upbeat. There may be exceptions but certainly this is a general pattern that is seen in Egyptian dancers.

With undulations (camels), the dancer virtually always steps forward and lifts the upper body on the one and the three.

With the movement I call the Egyptian figure 8 (hip starts back and moves up, over, and in, with an undulation layered over), the dancer virtually always is lifting and beginning the hip movement on the one and the three.

When the dancer alernately steps and lifts the hip, the general trend seems to be lifting on the one and the three and stepping on the two and four.

None of these are 100% rules but they do seem to me to be general trends, and ones that western dancers often don't utilize and its one thing that makes the dance look westernized.

But I also agree that feeling and connecting with the music is a vital element of making the dance authentic.

Sedonia

Spot on SS. I'm re-listening to some of Leila's music and there sure are a lot of drum accents on 1 & 3.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Suha! I loooooooove that clip of Tahiya! Now THAT is the essence of Egyptian dance!

Not to hijack the thread, but I also have a quick question for you...there is a debke rhythm that sounds almost the same as sa'idi; the main difference is that there is no DUM on 1 - I believe the first DUM comes between 1 and 2. Am I making sense? Is there a particular name for this rhythm? If you could let me know I'd appreciate it.

Also...how often do you come to the US to teach, and when is your next visit?!

Nisaa

Nisaa,

The rhythm you're describing sounds like (what Arab musicians call) Katakofti (4/4). It's not the same as the Turkish Katakofti. You're right, it is used in Lebanese folk-music, and Samira Toufic songs are a good example.


It goes, tek DUM teka tek Dum teka tek teka.

Nisaa, I don't know if I can make it to the US to teach before next year. I have a lot of projects here in Lebanon and I can't see an opening in my schedule for a while. Meanwhile, you are welcome to visit if you like.

Originally Posted by ssipes

None of these are 100% rules but they do seem to me to be general trends, and ones that western dancers often don't utilize and its one thing that makes the dance look westernized.



Sedonia

What makes dancers look 'Westernised' is when they approach the rhythm in such a self-conscious manner. The whole point of my post wasn't to get into a beginner-level discussion of doing hip-drops on the 'downbeat' or how to time undulations. The Arabic approach is actually more sophisticated than the 'Belly Dance for Dummies' type of advice in the 'EDC'. Yes, get your basics right - but then MOVE PAST THEM onto more mature ideas. It's crucial if you're striving for authenticity so see that trying to 'tame' complex Arab rhythms to conform to Western concepts can only hold you back.

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

The rhythm you're describing sounds like (what Arab musicians call) Katakofti (4/4). It's not the same as the Turkish Katakofti. You're right, it is used in Lebanese folk-music, and Samira Toufic songs are a good example.


It goes, tek DUM teka tek Dum teka tek teka.

THat sounds right! Thank you!

Nisaa, I don't know if I can make it to the US to teach before next year. I have a lot of projects here in Lebanon and I can't see an opening in my schedule for a while. Meanwhile, you are welcome to visit if you like

OK! And thanks! Keep us all posted on your touring schedule.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

What makes dancers look 'Westernised' is when they approach the rhythm in such a self-conscious manner. The whole point of my post wasn't to get into a beginner-level discussion of doing hip-drops on the 'downbeat' or how to time undulations. The Arabic approach is actually more sophisticated than the 'Belly Dance for Dummies' type of advice in the 'EDC'. Yes, get your basics right - but then MOVE PAST THEM onto more mature ideas. It's crucial if you're striving for authenticity so see that trying to 'tame' complex Arab rhythms to conform to Western concepts can only hold you back.

Suha, I totally agree with you. I was just mentioning this because there are alot of dancers and dance teachers I have seen who never get past some of these technical basics.

So my question is too elementary and inconsequential to even be dignified with an answer? I shall go find a virtual hole to crawl into...

Oh no, baby, I have seen you dance - remember? I think what I am looking for is basic info...how to bake the cake...what you want is more akin to putting a delicatley flavored icing on your already very tasty cake.

ha, thanks Anala. Was coming back to delete my post since there's no reason to impose my self-wallowing on ya'll. Been one of those days already and it's not even noon!

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

THat sounds right! Thank you!

Nisaa

ps. Nisaa, forgot to add, if you hear it as tek Dum teka Dum Dum teka tek teka (because I noticed you said it 'sounds like Saidi') that is a variation on Katakofti with the drummer 'filling in' with that extra Dum. Not a very good quality vid... sorry.

3al 3eyn Mouleyetein

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFVHd2x2x_A]YouTube - Samira Tawfik - 3ahl 3hein Ihl Mohlayate (ARABIC DANCE LIVE)[/ame]

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

What makes dancers look 'Westernised' is when they approach the rhythm in such a self-conscious manner. The whole point of my post wasn't to get into a beginner-level discussion of doing hip-drops on the 'downbeat' or how to time undulations. The Arabic approach is actually more sophisticated than the 'Belly Dance for Dummies' type of advice in the 'EDC'. Yes, get your basics right - but then MOVE PAST THEM onto more mature ideas. It's crucial if you're striving for authenticity so see that trying to 'tame' complex Arab rhythms to conform to Western concepts can only hold you back.

Suha, I don't understand. Are the outlined points of Sausan's code basic or wrong? or both?

Of course Tahia breezes through the intro without becoming overly concerned with hitting every dum; that's just good interpretation of what the music is at that time -- an introduction.

The same goes for the body of the music (and the dance); she sometimes really hits the dum and sometimes she doesn't -- again, looks like good dancing to me.

Up on dum or down on dum or outward on dum: just seems like choosing a movement that goes with emphasizing the dum in the music rather than a conscious effort to do a particular direction of movement.

Or am I missing the boat entirely . . . .w.:

Deborah

ok..time for my take on it. It depends on where the dance has taken me as I weave in and out of the melody and visit the percussion. If I have landed in a sit/tuck position, and I know (or think I do ;-)) a big fat juicy dum is gonna happen real soon..I will stay there like a big coiled spring and wait for that dum to release all my energy upward into that previously tucked hip - since I am in the down and dirty position to begin with... if the situation were to be reversed, and my chest and arms are up in the flute zone, and a new phrase is to begin and it is a heavy dum, then I might just land real heavy on one flat foot (while projecting a strong arm and hand straight up) to allow a reverb to be seen traveling up the body. Both movements are up on the down - if you will...but only because of the place my body just happened to be in - just before that moment in time. Mind you..I prefer improv so the odds of repeating a really cool move may be slim, but thats real life, it's the red bead in my green costume, yes?

Originally Posted by anala

ok..time for my take on it. It depends on where the dance has taken me as I weave in and out of the melody and vistit the percussion. If I have landed in a sit/tuck position, and I know (or think I do ;-)) a big fat juicy dum is gonna happen real soon..I will stay there like a big coiled spring and wait for that dum to release all my energy upward into that previously tucked hip - since I am in the down and dirty position to begin with... conversley, if the situation were to be reversed, and my chest and arms are up in the flute zone, and a new phrase is to begin and it is a heavy dum, then I might just land real heavy on one flat foot (while projecting a strong arm and hand straight up) to allow a reverb to be seen traveling up the body. Both movements are up on the down if you will...but only because of the place my body just happened to be in just before that moment in time. Mind you..I prefer improv so the odds of repeating a really cool move may be slim, but thats real life, it's the red bead in my green costume, yes?

In my little mind, seems right to me! ..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

Nisaa,

The rhythm you're describing sounds like (what Arab musicians call) Katakofti (4/4). It's not the same as the Turkish Katakofti. You're right, it is used in Lebanese folk-music, and Samira Toufic songs are a good example.


It goes, tek DUM teka tek Dum teka tek teka.

Nisaa, I don't know if I can make it to the US to teach before next year. I have a lot of projects here in Lebanon and I can't see an opening in my schedule for a while. Meanwhile, you are welcome to visit if you like.

Aha! So that’s what that rhythm’s called! ..l;, That’s got to be one of my favorites; I always get it stuck in my head…

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

ps. Nisaa, forgot to add, if you hear it as tek Dum teka Dum Dum teka tek teka (because I noticed you said it 'sounds like Saidi') that is a variation on Katakofti with the drummer 'filling in' with that extra Dum. Not a very good quality vid... sorry.

3al 3eyn Mouleyetein

YES!!! That's it for sure. I think I've heard drummers fill it in with triple dums as well (but just here and there, not on every bar).

Thanks again!

Nisaa

PS...sorry to take the thread off course...

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Of course Tahia breezes through the intro without becoming overly concerned with hitting every dum; that's just good interpretation of what the music is at that time -- an introduction.

The same goes for the body of the music (and the dance); she sometimes really hits the dum and sometimes she doesn't -- again, looks like good dancing to me.

Up on dum or down on dum or outward on dum: just seems like choosing a movement that goes with emphasizing the dum in the music rather than a conscious effort to do a particular direction of movement.

Or am I missing the boat entirely . . . .w.:

Deborah

No, you are squarely inside the boat!

playing devil's advocate for a moment the EDc starts by saying that the defauklt way of relating to the music for an Egyptian dancer is in the upper body and up, which is interesting, but then to go on to make it a prescriptive code makes it into nonsense.
the one reliable way to look Western in dancing is to count and analyze everything and be utterly predictable.

Originally Posted by jencUK

playing devil's advocate for a moment the EDc starts by saying that the defauklt way of relating to the music for an Egyptian dancer is in the upper body and up, which is interesting, but then to go on to make it a prescriptive code makes it into nonsense.

Yes, it is this first part that makes so much sense to me.... I see it everywhere now in Egyptian dancers past and present! Even Nisaa's example clip on the other thread shows this theory in action.

But Zahra, my first teacher and mentor, hailed for her "Egyptianness" at least here in the States (she learned mostly from Raqia in 70s and 80s), literally in her Teacher Training class yesterday said "when we are dancing to Arabic music we step on the one, because it's a dum." Which kind of goes against Suha's above reasoning...right? ..c::

Edited to add that I LOVE THE DRUM!! It is the instrument that resonates with me most. It is what first drew me to Arabic music, and speaks to me like nothing else. The rhythm, to me, is the frame for the picture. Without the frame, the picture doesn't look so classy....and if you put the picture in a shadow box it's going to have a much different effect than if you put it in a regular frame.

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

Watch Tahia breeze through this Masmoudi Kbir (8/4) variation in the intro

DUM-teka DUM-teka TeKA TeKA DUM teka teka tek teka teka tek teka

This is a really commonly-used rhythm in Arabic music, and I've seen dancers who feel like they have to race to 'keep up' with it. And you would have to race if you were going to mark every 'dum'!


She is acknowledging the rhythm, but she isn't fixating on rigid ideas like up or down on the dum. She's comfortable with the music and doesn't act as though the next measure were going to take her by surprise and that she'd better hurry to 'catch' it and do something dramatic or obvious for each and every measure. You should only do that if you want it to look like you're counting!

Awesome advice and great clip, one of my personal faves. So what you are talking about here is what I describe to my students (especially when I'm teaching rhumba) as dancing In the beat versus Above the beat. My terminology is more descriptive than technical, it's meant to make a comparison: Tahia is above the beat in the sense that she is within the rhythm but not tying every movement to it. Like you said, she aknowledges it without dancing slavishly to it! Same with rhumba, you can hit all the pulses of rhumba, but you can also glide along in a walk that is connected to the tempo and beat, but not punctuated at every step.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Not to hijack the thread, but I also have a quick question for you...there is a debke rhythm that sounds almost the same as sa'idi; the main difference is that there is no DUM on 1 - I believe the first DUM comes between 1 and 2. Am I making sense? Is there a particular name for this rhythm? If you could let me know I'd appreciate it.

The most common rhythm used for Dabke at a social function is what Lebanese and Syrians call Tabal, Americans call it Narwari

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7BPtF1snj0]YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia[/ame]

Sometimes to add solo phrasing a drummer will play one bar of Saidi. You can fit the ghawazi variation of Saidi within Narwari. Goes something like

TD-DD-Tktktk

Something like this

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4cPQKE3vVs]YouTube - Jrisi's Drills - DVD Preview[/ame]

Originally Posted by SuhaDeeb

From what I gather, this confusion seems to be caused mostly by advice given by different percussionists. I would like to ask why take advice on dancing from percussionists, unless they are also dance teachers themselves?

That reminds me. Anyone with dreams of performing with the Bellydance Superstars. Issam's biggest gripe with the auditions is that dancers don't seem to know the difference between the Egpytian Saidi and the Lebanese Tabal rhythm.

He also expects dancers to go up on tak and down on doum. I'm not making a judgement on if that is correct, dance wise, but that is what he is expecting. If you can't demonstrate to him that you know the difference between the two rhythms and reflect that in your dance, your name gets crossed off the list.

Great thread Suha,thank you!:)

A little OT but still within the theme:
Why does any dancer listen to critique from random club owners and BF:s?

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

The most common rhythm used for Dabke at a social function is what Lebanese and Syrians call Tabal, Americans call it Narwari

YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia

Sometimes to add solo phrasing a drummer will play one bar of Saidi. You can fit the ghawazi variation of Saidi within Narwari. Goes something like

TD-DD-Tktktk

Something like this

YouTube - Jrisi's Drills - DVD Preview

And just when I thought I had it all figured out! Is there a relationship between tabal/nawari and katakofti? Just different names?

I'm sorry, I'm at work and can't watch the clips right now (work blocks YouTube...d'oh). I'll definitely check them when I'm at home.

ETA...just had a chance to watch, and yes, this sounds the same to me as what Suha described as Katakofti...

Nisaa

For those of you who teach, can I ask if you do any drills across the floor that include either a step-hip or a hip-step? What's your 'default'?