Thread: Tales of Sahara - help with rhythm??

There is a section in Tales of the Sahara that I identified as ayoub (in the 5 minute BSDD version, it starts like 2 minutes in...it's a bit later in Jalilah's version) and confirmed this with one of my teachers. However, looking at clip after clip on YouTube, I'm noticing that lots of them, even troupes, are incorporating all kinds of Khaleeji steps in this section. Can someone I.D. this rhythm for sure?

I'm creating a choreography to this song to teach to a pretty savvy group, and the last thing I want to do is misinform the students!

Have you asked your teacher about it?

well, I'm not seeing her (or any others) between now and the class I'm subbing for. It just seems strange that so many people hear Khaleeji in this so I thought I might be way off-base. There is no reason to put Khaleegi moves to an ayoub, right (besides perhaps hair tossing)?

Hmmm...not being super strong on Khaleeji I don't have a lot of wisdom here - I need to do some research!

Which Jalilah CD is this on?

Originally Posted by bintbeled

Which Jalilah CD is this on?

uh... 6. It starts just about 4 minutes in to the song on that one. I tried to upload it but Bhuz didn't like it.

It's khaleegy - the rhythms are really similar and I've actually seen some Actual Khaleegy Persons demonstrating their own regional dance using ayoub, so I suspect there's some crossover. I use khaleegy bits there because Hadia does. I figure she knows what she's doing.

serious!?! oh man. I started with a bunch of khaleeji steps before doubting myself and deciding it really was classic ayoub, and then to have it confirmed by someone I consider an authority on rhythm...wow.

thanks...glad I asked!

Looked on YouTube,I hear khaleej bars of rythms threwn in from 2.26 to 3.36 in here:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59AmRsJBfZA]YouTube - Emma Pyke - Tales of the Sahara by Ihsan Al-Mounzer[/ame]

I would use steps to acknowledge that they come on;tight shoulder shakes,limping steps,head slides,wrists bumps and such before I start with any hair tossing and swinging.

that's exactly the section, Emma. thanks!

ETA how do you tell them apart?? is the main difference the ka between the two dums? I'm pretty sure I learned ayoub with the ka in place in drumming classes from several different drummers...

i do khaleegy in that bit too...

A confession has to be made;
I don´t count or measure!

Aminah and Samasem has been my main weekly teachers,
they want us to be able to improvise to unknown music.
Even though they clap,count and explaining about different familys of rythms and style...
I´m happiest when I "follow the bouncing butt".w.:(don´t tell anyone about this!)

I´ve been listening hard at arabic music at home between lessons,and tried to imitate my teachers,
then somehow learned to dance the right steps when different rythms comes on.
(I´m an intermediate student now)

Nasila, it's hard to explain the difference - I don't count either unless I'm forced to - but the best explanation I can give is that khaleegy has a slightly more driving quality to it. There is that ka between the dums, but it's a very quick ka - like DUMkaDDUM (kateka) - whereas ayoub goes DUM kaDUM (TEK) with a little more of a pause. Ayoub is more "walky" to my ear, if that makes sense.

I'm thinking maybe the ka is more syncopated in Ayoub? This site shows no ka in the Ayoub at all (and I don't think the fill afterwards exists in this section of Tales).

Azizahhabibi

Somehow I've managed to miss every Khaleegy workshop around here!

oops, we were typing at the same time, Zum. gah, my brain is fried right now. thanks everyone.

I'm currently learning a choreography to this song and we do khaleegy steps at that part. I'm not too sure how to explain it but we do a hair swinging with a shoulder drop.

That's definitely a snippet of a khaleegy song, but the beat is a little more syncopated than usual.

Many dancers use zar like head throws in their Ayoub, there is a descrepany among musicians if zar and ayoub are one in the same. I've heard there is a difference in the rhythm, yet many say Ayoub is the rhythm, and zar is the ritual. Khaleegy uses hair as well, So don't be surprised to see hair tossing in to both rhythms, many dancers get confused when they see a performance if the dancer is doing zarish head tosses, or Khaleegy. I'm going to talk to Amani this weekend, I'll see what her point of view is and let you know!!

Thanks everybody!! (what, no hair-flippin' smiley??)

Originally Posted by Aradia

Many dancers use zar like head throws in their Ayoub, there is a descrepany among musicians if zar and ayoub are one in the same. I've heard there is a difference in the rhythm, yet many say Ayoub is the rhythm, and zar is the ritual.

Well, I believe ayoub is a rhythm, and one that is commonly associated with the zar ritual for stage (even though I'm told in the ME there are several different rhythms used in a zar, which do not necessarily include ayoub). But Khaleegy is totally different (in country of origin and in purpose), even though the rhythm may sound very similar to ayoub.

From what I understand, the hair tosses in Khaleegy are actually about showing off the hair, whereas in a zar the hair just kind of goes along for the ride (more like full torso convulsions with head spins or flips...whatever may placate the angered spirit). Does that all sound right?

I'd be happy to hear any new info you can get your hands on!! ..g.: Does anyone know of any "authentic" Khaleegy clips?

I don't have any clips, but I do a trade with a woman from Iraq, I teach her Oriental, and she teaches me Khaleegy, she breaks down everything, which step is from Kuwait, which one is from Iraq, if it's a man's step, or one that the women hijacked and started using!
Yes, in Khaleegy the swinging of the hair actually has a technique, because it's sexy to get the hair to land a certain way over your face, at least in the Kuwait and Iraqi culture, I haven't studied much of Saudia Arabian style. Zar is not even a dance, but a ritual to rid women of demons and bad energy (don't they know she is just going through menopause???)..l;,
Ayoub is the rhythm, although like I said, some musicians dispute it.

Another accident dancers make is thinking that Tunisian is Khaleegy, because they have some similarities, like in the middle of Mashaal, it goes into Tunisian, but I've seen some dancers do Khaleegy there.

They are similar in they are both dum dum tak

In Ayoub the second dum is on the beat
In Khaleegy the second dum is BEFORE the second beat, giving a synchopated feel.

The Ka inbetween isn't really part of the core rythmn, at least the way i look at it

Z

Originally Posted by zafirah

In Ayoub the second dum is on the beat
In Khaleegy the second dum is BEFORE the second beat, giving a synchopated feel.

awesome! thank you!!

Originally Posted by Aradia

I don't have any clips, but I do a trade with a woman from Iraq, I teach her Oriental, and she teaches me Khaleegy, she breaks down everything, which step is from Kuwait, which one is from Iraq, if it's a man's step, or one that the women hijacked and started using!
Yes, in Khaleegy the swinging of the hair actually has a technique, because it's sexy to get the hair to land a certain way over your face, at least in the Kuwait and Iraqi culture, I haven't studied much of Saudia Arabian style. Zar is not even a dance, but a ritual to rid women of demons and bad energy (don't they know she is just going through menopause???)..l;,
Ayoub is the rhythm, although like I said, some musicians dispute it.

Another accident dancers make is thinking that Tunisian is Khaleegy, because they have some similarities, like in the middle of Mashaal, it goes into Tunisian, but I've seen some dancers do Khaleegy there.

Ooh, Aradia, you're lucky to have a trade like that!

I haven't danced to Mash'al in a long time, but last time I danced to it with a live band, they played khaleegy instead of a Tunisian 6/8 for that part. I was a happy girl that night!

Originally Posted by zafirah

They are similar in they are both dum dum tak

In Ayoub the second dum is on the beat
In Khaleegy the second dum is BEFORE the second beat, giving a synchopated feel.

The Ka inbetween isn't really part of the core rythmn, at least the way i look at it

Z

that is a very good explanation, thank you!

So there is Khaleegy in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Are there regional differences of note, either in music and movement? I really dug Estrella's Iraqi Khaleegy...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGrzeVS-ntI"]YouTube - Estrella Bellydancer San Diego[/ame]

Wow, that's a lovely peformance. More energetic than my fave style, Saudi.

Originally Posted by nasila

So there is Khaleegy in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Are there regional differences of note, either in music and movement? I really dug Estrella's Iraqi Khaleegy...

YouTube - Estrella Bellydancer San Diego

Yes,there are *very different* styles from region to region-It´s like talking about "European dance and music":)

For example Iraq is an enormous country with so many different ethnic groups.(except from the arabic speaking sunni and shia there´s kurds,assyrians,turkmens and so on,they had a jewish community too before.)

I loved Estrellas dance too!
The first part is a classic khaleegy that most people who wants to see good Gulf dance would love-
the second dance I guess would be recognized as typical Iraqi gypsy steps to a Baghdad party song,really well done with feeling:thumbs_up:

Some time ago I asked DaVid which teachers he studied Iraqi dance with ,
but I haven´t seen him on Bhuz for a while...is Patricia here?*waves*

Also Aisha Azar has two articles online about different styles:
ARE WE CONFUSED YET
OBSERVATIONS ON SAMRI

Originally Posted by nasila

So there is Khaleegy in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Are there regional differences of note, either in music and movement? I really dug Estrella's Iraqi Khaleegy...

YouTube - Estrella Bellydancer San Diego

As I understand it, it's the same as khaleegy is to ayoub, similar rhythm but different in the execution.

Regions often share some drum rhythms and movements in common, but there are often cultural and other differences.

And the more similar they are, the more vehemently their adherents will point out the differences.

These four clips are all Iraqi music,
but different styles...since I love Reeda Abdallah he goes first;)

Edited to add:When we learn Khaleej dance from our Egyptian and Lebanese style teachers,
we learn what they use to entertain a *certain group*(rich,arabic speaking khaleej people)of tourists.
There are many more styles than that:)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6In39Bsuhes&feature=PlayList&p=D8788E8639E 2AECB&index=28]YouTube - arabik video clip-nice music[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgV5pCxT6GY]YouTube - Iraqi Basrawi Jalsat Hewa[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti3Glh9-ezA]YouTube - Kurdish music and dance - Mêrgesor, South-Kurdistan[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86s4JZWYvxw]YouTube - Assyrian singer Livon Oshana Singing Iraqi part[/ame]

Love that first clip too, Emma!

So, in the third clip they're not doing Debke??

No,this must be halay,
my dads side of the family(albanians)
dances very similar:
Halay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However I don´t know much about Kurdish culture:)

All regions in Balkan,the Levant and ME seems to have line dances with simple steps,but they differ even from village to village.