Thread: My cheating zills

So I just wanted to know how important you all think it is when you play zills to keep true to the Right or Left in the rhythms. So for 1,1,1,2,3,1,1,2,3 r,r,r,l,r,r,r,l,r. I have found lately that although keeping this true while still is not really a problem, when I get to dancing around and playing, although I still keep the sound of the rhythm, I am not staying with the finger patterns. If it sounds the same, does it matter? I am not saying that I won't keep practicing with the taught fingering or that I am giving up on learning them....I was just wondering.

It doesn't really matter. Some people teach r-l-r, some people r-r-l...the difference in sound isn't huge and you want to be comfortable playing them. Only I wouldn't suggest too many on the same hand as then you're not building up the dexterity on your other hand.

One of my teachers encourages alternating hands. So if you did r-l-r - she'd suggest next l-r-l - she says you can do more complicated patterns if you play them like that.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

One of my teachers encourages alternating hands. So if you did r-l-r - she'd suggest next l-r-l - she says you can do more complicated patterns if you play them like that.

This is how I was both taught to play, and my natural inclination. No worries.

Once one tries to get to playing different sounds on zills, and to playing like a musician, it seems important that one can control which hand strikes. I am currently working on that - and I suspect one will have a hard time with switching hands or with letting the hands go as they want between dominant hand and switching.

I've been taught to alternate r-l-r-l or r-l-r because you can get faster that way. I just do whatever comes naturally. Sometimes is r-l-r, sometimes it's r-r-l. Do you know I broke my middle (right) finger and was so upset about my zil finger! I readjusted my zils to fit over my finger splint and played like nothing was wrong! I will be afraid when the splint comes off! Actually maybe we all should use splints with our zils to prevent "blue" fingertips!....hahahaha

Playing finger cymbals while dancing is a folk form, not a classical form, so I don't think there is really a right or wrong way to play the rhythms in terms of strike patterns.

There are pros and cons, and neutral considerations to using a dominant hand vs. alternating. It also depends upon what kind of cymbals you are playing and whether you want your right hand to sound different from your left. Also if you are playing within a group choreography, it is good to have everyone striking the same way.

In a group setting, I think it's more important to stay consistent because most of the people in the group will be right handed, and the right hand strikes will be louder and over time, those zils will develop a different tone. I play one thickness of sagat on one hand and a thicker pair on the other hand, so I have two distinct tones when I play. Still, to most listeners, it's just "ting! ting! ting! ting!" and they don't notice the full two note difference.

This is good to know. I don't dance with a group so I don't think that makes a difference. I strive to be consistant but I am a quarky gal and it just doesn't always want to go the same. Some times I am right handed, sometimes left. I AM right handed, I just mean that when I play I switch for some reason. My instructor says that I turn like a lefty also.

Originally Posted by bdance

I've been taught to alternate r-l-r-l or r-l-r because you can get faster that way. I just do whatever comes naturally. Sometimes is r-l-r, sometimes it's r-r-l. Do you know I broke my middle (right) finger and was so upset about my zil finger! I readjusted my zils to fit over my finger splint and played like nothing was wrong! I will be afraid when the splint comes off! Actually maybe we all should use splints with our zils to prevent "blue" fingertips!....hahahaha

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last few days with Gamal Gomaa (I hope I spelled that right) and he actually told me that in Egypt he and many musicians AND dancers put their zills on their pointer fingers not thier middle. He said that there is more control over loudness and strength that way. I had never heard this before. He also said that it was more about comfort so the middle finger is fine too.

I used to think it didn't matter.

But then I recorded myself playing zills into a microphone attached to my computer and played it back, and I realized that my two hands sound different from each other! Ever since then, I have believed that we should strive for consistency in fingering.

Also, sometimes cymbals are intentionally sold with one tuned differently from the rest, and the lack of consistency would be pretty obvious if you were playing such a set.

I think it's important to drill zills and rehearse your dancing with an attempt at playing consistent fingering. Of course, once you step on stage to perform, you can't possibly think about technique details - you need to focus on musical interpretation and relating to the audience.

I am a RRL girl and proud of it. I can do complicated stuff and keep up fast paces.
Personally I feel better always striking the beat with my left hand and doing fancy quick stuff with my right. i guess this means to some that I'll be going to bellydancer zill hell but don't care. i just play and concentrate on my dancing.
besides sez who you should RLR. Who invented that as being always right-huh?

I teach alternating and stop and correct if someone plays RRL. I can hear the difference. The dominant beats should be played with the dominant hand. Lots of people disagree.

If you want to play alternating and you have trouble when you move, you just need to drill it a little. It will be worth it to be able to play what you are supposed to play, and not only what you can play.

It's a shame that so few dancers put forth the effort to zill as well as they dance. It's like working your non-dominant side more than your dominant one, to ensure that it can keep up.

I prefer to play dums on the dominant hand, but I'm not always there yet. It doesn't help that I'm relatively ambidextrous, so my hands are often fighting it out over who gets to be dominant.

Mostly I am posting here though to comment that for days, every time I've seen the subject of this thread I hear Patsy Cline warbling "My Cheatin' Zills" to the tune of "Your Cheatin' Heart" ..g.:

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I prefer to play dums on the dominant hand, but I'm not always there yet. It doesn't help that I'm relatively ambidextrous, so my hands are often fighting it out over who gets to be dominant.

Mostly I am posting here though to comment that for days, every time I've seen the subject of this thread I hear Patsy Cline warbling "My Cheatin' Zills" to the tune of "Your Cheatin' Heart" ..g.:

I'm ambidextrous as well so I think that this is a problem for me. I like that you picked up a bit of the reference. I was actually singing that in my head as well.

I play differently than most people:

LRR LRR LRR LRR
1&a 2&a 3&a 4&a (with variations within the pattern, of course)

This manner of playing is considered left-hand dominant, but I'm right handed. Go figure. Depending upon how she counts it, it could be like Candi's method: RRL RRL RRL RRL
&a1 &a2 &a3 &a4

When I teach zills, I start with either alternating patterns RLR / LRL or RLR / RLR (and LRL / RLR and LRL / LRL for left handers) because most teachers teach these patterns. I then offer up "Deborah's way" (also using a right hand dominant method) as an additional pattern and allow people to play however they want.

Deborah

I, unlike a lot of dancers like to bring out the beat very clearly. I'm very beat orientated- as a musician (I have a music degree)In my book percussion instruments accentuate the beat. My right hand is far more dextrous than my left so it can do all the extra stuff( I had a stoke when I was younger so I could practise for the rest of my life to do it "correctly" and not be as good at playing as I am now)Incidently I have taught many non musicians to play sagat well using this method including a few who were rhythmically challenged!!!

Originally Posted by Linnyg

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last few days with Gamal Gomaa (I hope I spelled that right) and he actually told me that in Egypt he and many musicians AND dancers put their zills on their pointer fingers not thier middle. He said that there is more control over loudness and strength that way. I had never heard this before. He also said that it was more about comfort so the middle finger is fine too.

Pointer finger? This is the first time I've ever heard of that, but I've wondered!

Originally Posted by Linnyg

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last few days with Gamal Gomaa (I hope I spelled that right) and he actually told me that in Egypt he and many musicians AND dancers put their zills on their pointer fingers not thier middle. He said that there is more control over loudness and strength that way. I had never heard this before. He also said that it was more about comfort so the middle finger is fine too.

And to think, I've been feeling superior to all those model-types on the covers of old BD records who have zills on their thumbs and pointer fingers -- guess I have to take all that smugness back, eh?

Deborah

Who knew right? My instructor joked that it must be an american thing cause it is too hard to push stop and play on a player with your other fingers.:)

I play zills like I drum. Right hand is for keeping the BIG main beat, keeps going on and on and on and on and left hand is for punctuating, pauses, bits, etc.

&a1 &a2 is rlR since the 1 2 are the main bits. Sometimes I insert a pause into right hand, if music needs it, but mostly my right hand is going pretty steady, with the left (and adding more right strikes in also) making it into a rhythm beyond 1 2 3 4.

Sort of like my right hand on drum goes Dum and tek, while left does kah.

Music, rhythms, are not just about making noise, but inserting pauses to break up the beat. If that makes sense.

All of what Shira said!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I used to think it didn't matter.

But then I recorded myself playing zills into a microphone attached to my computer and played it back, and I realized that my two hands sound different from each other! Ever since then, I have believed that we should strive for consistency in fingering.

Also, sometimes cymbals are intentionally sold with one tuned differently from the rest, and the lack of consistency would be pretty obvious if you were playing such a set.

I think it's important to drill zills and rehearse your dancing with an attempt at playing consistent fingering. Of course, once you step on stage to perform, you can't possibly think about technique details - you need to focus on musical interpretation and relating to the audience.

Every pattern you play should be intentional.

If you're TRYING to play RRL or LLR (which can sound really great), then you should be consistant.

If you're TRYING to play RLR or LRL, then you shouldn't switch...unless you are switching hands to follow the direction of your movement.

I'm teaching a sagat choreography to the troupe I'm in, and I am EXTREMELY specific on what pattern to play when. You can hear the difference.

I've been struggling with this too. I'm ambidexterous as well.

I began learning dominant hand, r,l,r r,l,r, then I purchased a video (my early teachers didn't go over sagats very often) and the dancer in the video said to alternate hands because it gave the dominate hand time to catch up while the less dominate hand was playing (she had been dancing for over 25 years so I believed her). So, after all these years, I'm ambidexterous.

However, if I'm playing slowly I do use the dominate hand, r,l,r but when I speed up and am really trying to concentrate on choreography with sagats, my hands go automatically and I can't control them.

Dear me, it's like Dr. Strangelove,

Azeeza

PS I LOVE playing the sagats while dancing. I think it impresses my classmates and my friends when I perform :-)

What I've been told (I'm left-hand dominant) is to play alternating with which hand is dominant. So if I go LRL, I should eventually switch over to RLR.

I was told this because your hands should be versatile and this won't fatigue them.

Dominant sounds must be played by the same hand, whichever hand it is, for consistency of sound. For beledi RRrlrRrlr rl or LLlrlLlrl lr Dominant sound, dominant hand, or the sound won't be clear and consistent.