Thread: Alf Leyla triple rhythm?

I am working on Alf Leyla Wa Leyla right now and was wondering what the 3/4 or 6/8 rhythm that comes in part way through is called. I'm not having trouble dancing to it, but it is a new one to me and I am sure it must have a name. Does anyone know what it is?

Are you talking about the one that sounds like
D TTT TTT TT ???
1 &a2 &a3 &a ?

In my Cairo Orchestra (Tribute to Om Kalsoum) version, it comes in around 2:18. I'd love to know more about this rhythm!

I may be completely high, but I swore we had a discussion on this before, and someone said it was not a traditional Arabic rhythm, rather something created for the song? Or, I could be hallucinating.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I may be completely high, but I swore we had a discussion on this before, and someone said it was not a traditional Arabic rhythm, rather something created for the song? Or, I could be hallucinating.

Galatea! .p:: *slaps your hand* Put down that brownie right now! How many of those have you had?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Galatea! .p:: *slaps your hand* Put down that brownie right now! How many of those have you had?

Mmmmm...special brownies......

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Are you talking about the one that sounds like
D TTT TTT TT ???
1 &a2 &a3 &a ?

In my Cairo Orchestra (Tribute to Om Kalsoum) version, it comes in around 2:18. I'd love to know more about this rhythm!

YES. It's very exciting. Actually it was a bit annoying at first because in my version, the instrument playing above it is the nay, so that says airy, light, but that rhythm is is *very* strong and solid and earthed. I have made up an overambitious combo for it that I think works.

I am wondering if it is the same or similar to one that is in Mashaal (I don't have the music to hand to listen and it's not in my head right now), which someone said is Moroccan?

I love triple time and it's not something that turns up in BD every day. Of course this is too slow to get waltzy.

This is too perfect - a few weeks ago we were dancing to this in class and were trying to remember the name of the rhythm. I'm curious to know more about it.

What about York Samai?

Well it's not normal Samai, that's for sure.

I listened to it again and don't hear York Samai, but here it is just the same.

From Karim Nagi's rhythm-for-dancers notes, York Samai:

1 2 3 4 5 6
D T T D T is (empty)

When I hear that rhythm, I think triplets. It's definitely not a waltz-like 3/4, and it doesn't feel 6/8-ish to me.

The musical definition of triplets is that you have 3 notes evenly spread over 2 beats, and often they all have an even level of accent. There COULD be an accent on the first one, but not always. (Contrast this with waltz, where the three notes are played over three beats.)

Yeah, but it still goes one and-a-two and-a-three and-a, one etc. Those tecs are definitely triplets if you use that definition.

I don't actually mind if it's really 7/14, I can move to it, I just want to know what it's called.

It's actually not unlike bolero...

Sharon El S..h...y (crap - I cant even spell english, people!) says it is a 6/8 Samai on her choreo vid

From the Cairo Orchestra version, I hear:

1 &a2 &a3 &a1 &a2 &a3 &a1 (heavy on the 1's)

OR

1 2&3 4&5 6&1 2&3 4&5 6&1 (heavy on the 1's)

I'm not hearing triplets, just sixteenth or eighth notes, depending on how you're counting it.

It sounds like it has 6 beats per measure to me, but I don't know what it is called.

However, what makes that section even more unusual is that the phrasing falls in groups of 3 measures, not the usual 4.

Originally Posted by anala

Sharon El S..h...y (crap - I cant even spell english, people!) says it is a 6/8 Samai on her choreo vid

I will take Shareen's word! She knows her stuff. Now to look up 6/8 Samai.

I have a vague memory of that other thread and thought it was Darig?

Just checked my Jalilah's RS vol 4 and its Darig Samahi

Z

Zahra calls it a sumaii in 6/8 also.

Originally Posted by zafirah

I have a vague memory of that other thread and thought it was Darig?

Just checked my Jalilah's RS vol 4 and its Darig Samahi

Z

Oh, we have a winner! Just listened to it, that's definitely it.

Interestingly, though, I googled 'Darig Samahi' and this name for a rhythm seems to ONLY ever appear on Jalilah's RS vol 4. So it may also be called something else? Or just transliterated differently?

Jas' rhythm guide references a 'diraj Samai' (sp? closed the window) that's a 6/8 Samai, so maybe it's the same thing?

I'm pretty sure they aren't triplets. I hear:

Dum (pause) Tec Tec Tec (pause) Tec Tec Tec (pause) Tec Tec

i.e:

D- TTT- TTT- TT
1& 2&3& 4&5& 6&

Wouldn't the pause preclude it from being a true triplet? i.e., the first TTT would have to cover the full 2&3& to be a triplet, but in this rhythm it covers just the 2&3, and is followed by a pause.

(And I have no idea what the name of the rhythm is, but I'd love to know!)

Argh. Must remember to refresh thread between composing and posting. But yay, Bhuz!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Oh, we have a winner!

Interestingly, though, I googled 'Darig Samahi' and this name for a rhythm seems to ONLY ever appear on Jalilah's RS vol 4. So it may also be called something else? Or just transliterated differently?

Well I gues Samahi is the same as Samai samaai etc (?).

I think in the Middle East they aren't as anal as us and different people that teach rhythms to us westerners translate and present it to us in slightly different ways.

It sounds like some people think of it from a samai point of view (but I can't see how it relates to the 10/4 samai (unless the spelllings really do indicate something different, actually hanf on samaai proibably relates to being of andalucian origin?) and some people approach it as being part of the darig family?

It probably doesn't really matter - its an unusual random rhythm, it's unlikely we are ever going to request it from a drummer!

Geek out

Z

Geek out

LOL
it's unlikely we are ever going to request it from a drummer
I may just have to do that!

..c::A friend of mine who is a professional drummer from Jordan says that this is not samai, but just a 6/8 rhythm that has no specific name.

I dunno...it sounds a whole lot like a darj samai to me. There are a lot of different samai rhythms; most dancers (and drummers) are familiar with samai thaqil (the 10/8 one) but there are a bunch of others. They are muwashahat rhythms.

Nisaa

oooooo lookeeee what I found. Arabic Music Links

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

I'm pretty sure they aren't triplets. I hear:

Dum (pause) Tec Tec Tec (pause) Tec Tec Tec (pause) Tec Tec

i.e:

D- TTT- TTT- TT
1& 2&3& 4&5& 6&

Wouldn't the pause preclude it from being a true triplet? i.e., the first TTT would have to cover the full 2&3& to be a triplet, but in this rhythm it covers just the 2&3, and is followed by a pause.

(And I have no idea what the name of the rhythm is, but I'd love to know!)

Hmmm, I'll have to listen to it again.

the mid scetion is a zeffa. tinah

The version I have isn't a zeffa, or at least not an ordinary one, but it does still sound very zeffaish (the first D TTT T sounds just like one, even down to the kind of drum sound). Maybe it's a deliberate variation by the composer, because a zeffa would make sense what with all the goopy love involved in this song!

I kind of wish I had an actual habibi to direct the "ya habibi" to!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Jas' rhythm guide references a 'diraj Samai' (sp? closed the window) that's a 6/8 Samai, so maybe it's the same thing?

Well 'darig' is probably just the egyptian pronounciation of the Jim as a G.

I looked at Jas' site (i think it was that, jalilah and hossam ramzy's cd that taught me all i know!). The Darij Samai doesn't look like our suspect as it has the second dum, but maybe our suspect is a modified version of this and related in a way that makes sense to drummer.

I suspect though, that this particular special variation only exists in Alf Leyla wa Leyla and we;ll end up nowhere! But it's nice to have an actual intelligent dance conversation on bhuz these days!

Has anyone heard it in any other pieces of music?

Z

Originally Posted by zafirah

Well 'darig' is probably just the egyptian pronounciation of the Jim as a G.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking.

I looked at Jas' site (i think it was that, jalilah and hossam ramzy's cd that taught me all i know!). The Darij Samai doesn't look like our suspect as it has the second dum, but maybe our suspect is a modified version of this and related in a way that makes sense to drummer.

Yes -- Darij is a Samai in 6/8 rather than 10/8, so I can see it as a modification or variation.

I suspect though, that this particular special variation only exists in Alf Leyla wa Leyla and we;ll end up nowhere! But it's nice to have an actual intelligent dance conversation on bhuz these days!

Has anyone heard it in any other pieces of music?

Z

I haven't. Tina's right, though, it does recall a zeffa! It might be meant to have the same emotional effect as sampling a few notes of 'Here Comes The Bride' would have for us.