Thread: rhythm issues

ok so i'm trying to learn the different rhythms.
so far, the 'basic' rhythms, i generally get ok.

but what the hell with the variations??

for example. (this example is very specific cos it's what just got me all bleh-ed up just now ^^ )

on the practice DVD The Art of the Drum Solo with Sonia and Issam.
i've only just started it so i'm about 20min in just now.

ok for the warm-up, Issam explains the rhythm, and maintains it for the whole thing. great.
then he moves on to saiidi. (9 minutes into the dvd)
he explains the dum tak, dum dum, tak thing, ok, and plays that for a while (with slight variations, like extra percussions or leaving out the first dum, but ok, the base of the Saiidi still recognisable).
then the next move, he plays something different, i figure, ok it's another rhythm and they just didn't explain it. ((even though, going back just now, Sonia *does* state it's still Saiidi)).
same thing for the 3rd rhythm Sonia states it's Saiidi. but it's totally unrecognisable!!

what i thought was meant by "rhythm variations", was that you could still 'hear' the "base" of the rhythms, but maybe with a beat left out or fancy percussions added on top, like what Issam was doing during the first exercise.
but in the 2nd and 3rd exercise you (well, I, in any case) can't even imagine the Dumtak, dum dum tak in that! and yet, i have a pretty good sense of rhythm...

urgh the frustration!!

am i wrong?
is there no real logic in all this and you just have to learn to recognise by ear all the rhythms as well as all their variations?

please help a very frustrated little girl ^^


edit: this has probably been asked 100 times before, but are there any cds out there, either teaching/explaining the different rhythms, or just with a bunch of tracks with rhythms... yeah that sounds stupid, any drum solo cd is that, you're gonna tell me, but you know what i mean... just simple tracks titled "saiidi" or "maqsoum" or the likes that go on for a minute or so, starting with the 'basic' rhythm and then maybe going on into variations... that'd be so helpful

Originally Posted by Kathiya

edit: this has probably been asked 100 times before, but are there any cds out there, either teaching/explaining the different rhythms, or just with a bunch of tracks with rhythms... yeah that sounds stupid, any drum solo cd is that, you're gonna tell me, but you know what i mean... just simple tracks titled "saiidi" or "maqsoum" or the likes that go on for a minute or so, starting with the 'basic' rhythm and then maybe going on into variations... that'd be so helpful

Uncle Mafufo and Mary Ellen Donald both have CD's that do exactly what you're asking for.

On Uncle Mafufo's version, first he speaks the rhythm using words like doom and tec, then he plays them slowly and simply, then he speeds them up and starts adding complexity.

On Mary Ellen Donald's version, she plays the same rhythm at a continuous speed for 4 minutes.

I recommend Uncle Mafufo's to my students as a learning tool because he speaks the rhythm before he plays it, and I personally found that quite helpful back in my student days.

I use Mary Ellen Donald's in class when I teach because I like having a steady, continuous speed for 4 minutes. She has some additional resources for learning rhythms that I recommend, such as practice music that plays a medley of songs that all use the same rhythm.

**Jalilah's raks sharki vol. 4 (available on emusic but it is an expensive download because it is so many short tracks)
**Uncle mafufo's 40 Middle Eastern rhythms (or something like that).


I don't have the DVD you mention so I can't comment on why you aren't hearing the Saiidi.

I don't have that DVD but I find that drum students are often confused by the amount of variations that are commonly used in Middle Eastern music. Sometimes the drumming follows the melody, sometimes it accents it, etc. Drumming is making music and it's not like a click track. Each drummer puts their own unique touch on the rhythm.

If the rhythm is still Saidi, the underlying rhythm must be there somewhere. If there is a back-up percussionist or two, they usually hold down the basic rhythm while the lead drummer embellishes it.

Can you say the rhythm out loud for a few measures before the "weird" part starts and keep that going during those sections? Or clap the bones of the rhythm and keep that clapping going during the parts that are throwing you.

I also recommend the CDs Shira mentioned.

I love the complexities of the rhythms of our dance, I'm still so in love with all the rhythms after all these years. And there is always more to learn.

As mentioned before, you may be better off with a different instructional. I had the DVD you mention, and didn't care too much for it.

My favorite is the CD Rhythm Rides for the Doumbek. I like that they start out with counting, and then speak the rhythms for a long time. Also, it may help to understand what the rhythm are all about - take a drum class and check out the rhythm on paper; Carmine's rhythm cheat sheet on Dorku.com - Learn Middle Eastern Music is very useful.

thanks for the cd suggestions, will look into those.

Dunyah, there's only Issam drumming.

i think the saiidi beat is a really easy one. and i can tap my hands to the saiidi beat while he's playing his funky thing, but i really can't hear the saiidi in it. i could as well be tapping any other 4-beat rhythm.

one of the things he's playing sounds like:
taca taca tac tacatacatac (to which Sonia does piston hips to the tac tac tac, then shoulder shimmy to the fast bit - donno if that helps you visualise a bit better the sound of it)

Steffi - i love the suggestion a taking a drumming class, but i've already looked into that and haven't found squat around here :(

Well, during a drum solo, the point is to take off and do variations on the rhythms, and Issam certainly knows what he is doing, he's a fabulous drummer.

The DVD is titled Art of the Drum Solo, not Rhythms of the Dance. The 4/4 rhythms are often used interchangeably, even within a song.

yeah i know, and i can 'hear' the base rhythm usually and i totally appreciate the interchanging and variations and all, musically... but for something used in teaching, i was hoping that when they say "Okay, now the next move we'll be doing to Saiidi rhythm, is going to be this...", i was hoping they'd stick with Saiidi and not put something else in there.
considering they start every 'new' rhythm by explaining what it sounds like orally, then playing it on the darbouka, it seems like they're explaining it to a beginner. but in that case, stick to what the beginner is going to understand, no? if you say you're going to play saiidi, and then don't, what the hell. lol

then again the thing he's playing probably is saiidi, it's just i'm too dumb to get it. lol..

It doesn't sound like you're "dumb" at all. He is probably doing something pretty advanced. I can't quite picture the sound of it based on your description of the taca tacas, lol.

Is it the final measure in a pattern of four or eight? Drummers often change up the last pattern for emphasis and excitement.

Originally Posted by dunyah

I can't quite picture the sound of it based on your description of the taca tacas, lol.

figured, lol, i was just rereading it myself and had to re-listen to it cos it didn't work for me anymore lol. if anyone does get something out of my tacs they're a genius ^^

and no, it's not a final measure. i'd noticed that a lot in drum solos and such (love it by the way ^^ ). but no, here he does 8 measures of something, then 8 measures of this, then 8 of another variation. all supposedly saiidi. i can hear the similarities between the rhythms he's using, but not the link between them and saiidi

I've borrowed "the Art of Drum Solo" from netflix a couple times but did not like it enough to buy it. I didn't care for the way it is laid out, lack of menu and some of it isn't clear enough for me. But it has it's good points too. I don't have the dvd so I can't recall your specific question.

I personally find Jenna's "Heartbeat of Bellydance" was more helpful to me than the "Art of Drum Solo". They are similar in intent--both teach several rhythms and some drum solo technique at a basic level. I think it is partially because of the menu--it made it easier to find the rhythm breakdowns for review than having it buried within a workout with no menu option.

For rhythm identification cd's, I agree with others suggestions:
[QUOTE=ssipes;356574]**Jalilah's raks sharki vol. 4 (available on emusic but it is an expensive download because it is so many short tracks)
**Uncle mafufo's 40 Middle Eastern rhythms (or something like that).

Mafufo's tells you how to count the rhythm, the dun/tec/kas and plays an example. Jalilah's has an example and a much too short clip of the rhythm within a song (I wish the examples were longer--but this did help me start to recognize rhythms when there is a whole band playing as opposed to just one drummer).

For dancing to specific rhythms I also like:
*Tamra Henna's "Arabic Rhythms & Combinations" for combinations matched to several popular rhythms. I like the way she breaks down the rhythms and her approach to dancing to them.

It sounds to me lke Issam is truly playing Saidi throughout his Saidi section on the DVD. Remember that, as Dunyah said, normally an Arabic ensemble will have at least one other percussionist, such as a duff or tambourine player. When the drummer goes off into extreme variations on the base rhythm, the duff and/or tambourine player will keep on playing the base rhythm while the drummer gets creative. Your "teks" description of the final variation sounds to me like one of the common complex variations on Saidi.

This complexity is, I'm sure, why I am still in love with Arabic music and still learning its seemingly infinite variety after 3 decades!

just a little question.

some of the 'extreme variation' as laylalanty put it...
you gals who've been in BD since like forever lol.
if you hear just a little bit of one of these 'extreme' variations, can you recognise them as what they are? or do you need to hear the musical context of them to know?

when you dance, does it matter whether or not you know if that bit is a variation of saiidi, or another rhythm?
i know theoretically for some rhythms, you're supposed to adapt your dancing style to them. but does anyone actually do that, or is it just the theory?

Originally Posted by Kathiya

just a little question.

some of the 'extreme variation' as laylalanty put it...
you gals who've been in BD since like forever lol.
if you hear just a little bit of one of these 'extreme' variations, can you recognise them as what they are? or do you need to hear the musical context of them to know?

when you dance, does it matter whether or not you know if that bit is a variation of saiidi, or another rhythm?
i know theoretically for some rhythms, you're supposed to adapt your dancing style to them. but does anyone actually do that, or is it just the theory?

I think the context of the drum solo makes this question moot. In a drum solo you are aiming to hit the accents and not always the underlying rhythm. But as the dancer you get to choose which accents you want to hit, based on your interpretation of the music (even if the music is just one drum). So I wouldn't worry too much about knowing the underlying rhythm in every measure.

You can accent away, then when the rhythm IS very clear, you can reflect that in your choice of steps, like Saidi steps for Saidi rhythm or a nod to Khaleegy steps for Khaleegy rhythm, or Zar head tosses for Zar rhythm.

dunyah,
i love you for your patience in answering me ^^
thank you!

You are most welcome! Hope it's useful.

Originally Posted by dunyah

I think the context of the drum solo makes this question moot. In a drum solo you are aiming to hit the accents and not always the underlying rhythm. But as the dancer you get to choose which accents you want to hit, based on your interpretation of the music (even if the music is just one drum). So I wouldn't worry too much about knowing the underlying rhythm in every measure.

You can accent away, then when the rhythm IS very clear, you can reflect that in your choice of steps, like Saidi steps for Saidi rhythm or a nod to Khaleegy steps for Khaleegy rhythm, or Zar head tosses for Zar rhythm.

What Dunyah said!

Will have to take a look at the dvd to see what you mean. But there is also a difference between rhythm versions and "variations" within a version.

With Saidi there are probably 6 versions of Saidi and mulitple variations within those versions.

Originally Posted by Kathiya

on the practice DVD The Art of the Drum Solo with Sonia and Issam.
i've only just started it so i'm about 20min in just now.

ok for the warm-up, Issam explains the rhythm, and maintains it for the whole thing. great.
then he moves on to saiidi. (9 minutes into the dvd)
he explains the dum tak, dum dum, tak thing, ok, and plays that for a while (with slight variations, like extra percussions or leaving out the first dum, but ok, the base of the Saiidi still recognisable).
then the next move, he plays something different, i figure, ok it's another rhythm and they just didn't explain it. ((even though, going back just now, Sonia *does* state it's still Saiidi)).
same thing for the 3rd rhythm Sonia states it's Saiidi. but it's totally unrecognisable!!

OK, Issam is playing two major versions of Saidi. The Common version and it's variation with finger rolls and suks, then he moves into a "naughty boy" version where there is no doum and the beginning of the rhythm, only in the middle.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

OK, Issam is playing two major versions of Saidi. The Common version and it's variation with finger rolls and suks, then he moves into a "naughty boy" version where there is no doum and the beginning of the rhythm, only in the middle.

heya! :)
thanks for helping, but i don't think you're looking at the one that's really bothering me..
the one where he leaves out the first "dum" is ok... i'm having issues with the stuff he's playing while she does the exercise piston hips down, drop, shoulder shimmy back up.
would you mind having a look at that one please?

Originally Posted by Kathiya

heya! :)
thanks for helping, but i don't think you're looking at the one that's really bothering me..
the one where he leaves out the first "dum" is ok... i'm having issues with the stuff he's playing while she does the exercise piston hips down, drop, shoulder shimmy back up.
would you mind having a look at that one please?

Ok, you are right. Sonia says at the beginning that it is Saidi. But when the piston hips demo starts, Issam plays a couple of bars of a very unusual variation of Nawari, or tabal rhythm, normally used for Lebanese Dabke and musical can be slotted into a Saidi rhythm. Shortly after he then starts playing a rhythm solo ie he has made up a rhythm that has no doum, just tak, ka and suk.

When Sonia changes levels, Issam breaks out of a rhythm and starts following the dancer the way a lead drummer usually does, as opposed to a backing drummer who is there to hold the rhythm.

I think he has done all this because it's unusual to do a drum solo with only one drummer. You normally do it with a minimum of 2, a lead drummer who solos and follows the dancer, and a backing drummer who holds a rhythm.

Rhythms can be really confusing because here in the US we hear 4/4 almost exclusively .. a steady 1-2-3-4 beat.

The trick is to listen for the Doms. This can be really hard at first.. and even harder if you're listening to an Egyptian orchestra or an enthusiastic drummer!

If you are a visual learner, I recommend Keti Sharifs book.. it has most common rhythms described in a Dtk~ format.

Then get something like Hossam Ramzys rhythms, or Mary Ellen Donald, or Uncle Malfouf or Souhail Kaspar. Put the cd on, and listen to the rhythm while actually looking at the written rhythm.

Solace lists the rhythms for each song on the liner notes, so their stuff is also good to listen to when trying to learn the different rhythms.

Originally Posted by dunyah

I love the complexities of the rhythms of our dance, I'm still so in love with all the rhythms after all these years. And there is always more to learn.

Oh yes me too!! In fact the many rhythms are one of the reasons I love middle eastern music - especially 9/8s & chifti=tellies... the complex rhythm adds such a deep texture to the melodies

nitewindz, i have a bunch of stuff from solace but never noticed the rhythm was indicated. gonna go check that out, thanks for the tip! :)

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

Ok, you are right. Sonia says at the beginning that it is Saidi. But when the piston hips demo starts, Issam plays a couple of bars of a very unusual variation of Nawari, or tabal rhythm, normally used for Lebanese Dabke and musical can be slotted into a Saidi rhythm. Shortly after he then starts playing a rhythm solo ie he has made up a rhythm that has no doum, just tak, ka and suk.

When Sonia changes levels, Issam breaks out of a rhythm and starts following the dancer the way a lead drummer usually does, as opposed to a backing drummer who is there to hold the rhythm.

I think he has done all this because it's unusual to do a drum solo with only one drummer. You normally do it with a minimum of 2, a lead drummer who solos and follows the dancer, and a backing drummer who holds a rhythm.

thank you so much for that explanation!!
it's so awesome having drummers on bhuz ^^
thanks!! :)

I find the same thing, certain rhythm variations can be extremely hard to recognize.