Thread: Debke vrs Saiidi - rhythm ?

I know a lot of Lebanese and Palestinian debke rhythms are 6/4, or have a 6-beat rhythm. But there are a lot of 4/4 debkes (think Mohammed el Bakkar) and I have a reeeeeallly hard time hearing the difference between this rhythm and Saiidi.

What the heck is the actual notation for debke rhythms? Both the 4/4 and the 6/4. I've had two drummers try to explain this to me and I just don't get it, so I'm either stupid or beat-deaf to these.

Help?

Nope, you're not stupid or beat deaf at all; I feel the exact same way about these rhythms! I'm glad you asked this.

Tekedumtak dum dum tak
bend cross, step, lift, lift

count: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
Rhythm: dum dum tack dum

count: 1 2 3 4 - 5 - 6
Rhythm: Dumdumdumdum DUM ta dum ta dum
Shoulders: bounce bounce-bounce bounce, down, forward, back
torso: neutral neutral neutral, forward lean, center lean
legs: CROSS/bend, step, cross, step
alt legs: CROSS/bend - step, lift lift

Not 100% sure, but Im sure others can jump in and let us BOTH know what we're missing lol... I just usually hear it and recognize it and have an ear body connection... no brain included, I guess...lol

I think you must be referring to the Nawari debke rythm which is the one we most hear, like the song Ala Dalaouna if I'm not mistaken. There are so mnay others.

I could try to dig up notes from my rythm teacher but like David was coutning makes sense.

I hear it like
dum-tak-dum-dum-tak
where the first dum is a quarter note so that the first dum-tak are closer together creating a slightly more limping feel than the straight 4 count saidi.
Does that makes sense?
And then there are extra dum-dum-dum that the tabl player will add in to create his own improv style.

And definitely try to put the steps to it, it really makes sense in the body.
I hope I have that right.

Love debke!

Originally Posted by aziyade

I know a lot of Lebanese and Palestinian debke rhythms are 6/4, or have a 6-beat rhythm. But there are a lot of 4/4 debkes (think Mohammed el Bakkar) and I have a reeeeeallly hard time hearing the difference between this rhythm and Saiidi.

What the heck is the actual notation for debke rhythms? Both the 4/4 and the 6/4. I've had two drummers try to explain this to me and I just don't get it, so I'm either stupid or beat-deaf to these.

Help?

A topic close to my heart because I know dancers get this confused. In fact Issam Houshan told me that in a BDSS audition if a dancer can't tell the difference between a 4/4 Nawari rhythm to a Saidi rhythm, their names get crossed off the list.

I think part of the reason there is confusion is that the Saidi gets used as a one bar solo phrase within Nawari when it is being played for Dabke.

You can hear the Nawari rhythm here. Listen to when it gets to the solo at 42sec, Saidi is used briefly

YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia Live

This is the basic notation for Saidi and Nawari


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

Originally Posted by SamanthaFortunata

I think you must be referring to the Nawari debke rythm which is the one we most hear, like the song Ala Dalaouna if I'm not mistaken. There are so mnay others.

I could try to dig up notes from my rythm teacher but like David was coutning makes sense.

I hear it like
dum-tak-dum-dum-tak which easily can be read/heard as saiidi if you dont listen to the microscopic change in timing in the beats
where the first dum is a quarter note so that the first dum-tak are closer together creating a slightly more limping feel than the straight 4 count saidi.
Does that makes sense?
And then there are extra dum-dum-dum that the tabl player will add in to create his own improv style.

And definitely try to put the steps to it, it really makes sense in the body.
I hope I have that right.

Love debke!

Lol, know what, I was limping around all over the place here when I was writing the first reply post here... actually doing the movement - THEN saying the emphasises with the movement and then writing down the rhythm I think/imagine it sounds like lol

Please lemme know when you get your notes out whether we're close. Now Im obsessing about it.

Now, wouldnt you say that there is a difference in the sound quality of a darbouka used for Saiidi and that huge davul looking drum they use in Debke? It doesnt SOUND Saiidi to me because of the houler sound of the debkeh drum.

Originally Posted by SamanthaFortunata

I think you must be referring to the Nawari debke rythm which is the one we most hear, like the song Ala Dalaouna if I'm not mistaken.

The rhythm in Ala Dalaouna is a 6/8 "Dalaouna" rhythm.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGj6hq9g3kU"]YouTube - UCSB Lebanese Club Dabke[/ame]

Then there is an Iraq Chobi rhythm used in Iraqi Dabke.

Goes something like D-D-D-T-D-tk-tk

You can hear it at the beginning of the Amani Drum Solo

YouTube - Doumbek Bellydancing Solo Esther

double post

Originally Posted by david

Now, wouldnt you say that there is a difference in the sound quality of a darbouka used for Saiidi and that huge davul looking drum they use in Debke? It doesnt SOUND Saiidi to me because of the houler sound of the debkeh drum.

This is what Saidi sounds like with a Big Davul drum. This is the ghawazi version.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4cPQKE3vVs&fmt=18]YouTube - Jrisi's Drills - DVD Preview[/ame]

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

This is the basic notation for Saidi and Nawari


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

omg. i don't think i'd EVER have noticed that if you hadn't explained it!
thank you!!
lol, you hafta be aware of what you're listening for and have a pretty good ear to hear the difference

oooh I am in dance nerd heaven from this thread.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

This is the basic notation for Saidi and Nawari


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

thanks, that is the first time i've seen it explained nice a clear and simple. I can tell when a Saiidi is a saiidi when it starts with a dum

1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
D-T-__D-D-__T-__|

but the tek dum start vs a Debke has always been a muddy area that no one else has explained as simply. Its weird because I am usually good at breaking rythms down.

Z

I had my own coin-drop moment here -

"Tekedumtak dum dum tak
bend cross, step, lift, lift"

THAT's finally a good reason why the doum and tek are switched at the start of the measure - the bend and then step! Music matches dance ;-) This makes me very happy.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

This is the basic notation for Saidi and Nawari


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

AH!!! EXCELLENT notation! Very clear, thank you!!!
Examples: Saidi
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBEB3aceORk]YouTube - Leila of Cairo @ Nile Group 08 april (saidi)[/ame]
Saidi
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOgK-H9j9A]YouTube - Rabab- Upper Egypt Saidi Dance[/ame]

debke
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOyc2s4fKCM]YouTube - Fares karam -El Tannoura[/ame]
debke (with stage debke)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGTm4L4tb1E&feature=related]YouTube - Tony Hanna - "Yaba Yaba La" - طوني Ø*نا[/ame]

Originally Posted by steffib

I had my own coin-drop moment here -
"Tekedumtak dum dum tak
bend cross, step, lift, lift"
THAT's finally a good reason why the doum and tek are switched at the start of the measure - the bend and then step! Music matches dance ;-) This makes me very happy.

It only matches the dance during PART of the dance. In social debke there are different steps that match up with the vocal and with the instrumental parts. The more complex step patterns go with the instrumental part of the music; when a band is playing these parts are always stretched out longer. Some of the step patterns are in 4/4, others in 6/8...yet still often done to 4/4 rhythms.
The vocal vs instrumental part is of course just a "guideline" Here is what I would call typical social / public / "bublic" debka from Palestine. These guys are really good and fun - although I often see more variations on these steps such as deep lunges, jumping with two feet, one foot held up longer during hops etc. I'd guess this debka is from the same region as one of the ones I usually do with my friends.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTfgwxIzC_4&feature=related]YouTube - Palestinian Dabke[/ame]

Here's a practiced for stage version of another Palestinian debka that I haven't seen as often- so likely just from a different region
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZJFFqboGs&feature=related]YouTube - Palestinian dabke in Athens 3[/ame]

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

This is the basic notation for Saidi and Nawari


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

Nicely explained. To help students hear the difference, I generally tell them to listen for a tek vs. a dum on 1 throughout the majority of the piece, and for whether there are two dums in the middle of the bar (on "&3") throughout the majority of the piece. As you mentioned, a bar of sa'idi can crop up within a debke piece...so it's important for students to listen for the dominant rhythm throughout the piece.

I have a LOT of trouble with this -- I would probably just have to ask Nisaa for help!

Great thread! I could "hear' the difference but didn't "know" exactly what it was.

Thanks to everyone who elucidated.

AWESOME!! Thank you!!!!!! I think it might actually be starting to sink in.

Oddly enough, Nawari is a common enough rhythm on rhythm ID CDs, but I never really listened to it and thought "oh, debke!" .w.:

[QUOTE=SamiraShuruk;383244]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGTm4L4tb1E&feature=related]YouTube - Tony Hanna - "Yaba Yaba La" - طوني Ø*نا[/ame]

okay the Tony Hanna clip confuses me. He's playing with a stick, doing movements I've been taught are common in Tahtib and Saidi dance ...
and yet this is a debke. ..c::

Is he just playing around? Or is there something in the lyrics that connects the two styles, or am I completely missing the point?

[quote=aziyade;383591]

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

YouTube - Tony Hanna - "Yaba Yaba La" - طوني Ø*نا
okay the Tony Hanna clip confuses me. He's playing with a stick, doing movements I've been taught are common in Tahtib and Saidi dance ...
and yet this is a debke. ..c::
Is he just playing around? Or is there something in the lyrics that connects the two styles, or am I completely missing the point?

From what I remember (and this might not be accurate) the song is about a girl, a love song. I think he wants her back. BUT- take that with a grain of salt- because I could be mixing it up with at least 100 songs with that subject matter.
In Lebanon the dancers very often do "saidi" or more accurately asaya to debke music. They throw in "homage to saidi" steps and moves- or they are always seen as such because they are moves involving stick...and they also throw in debke steps. This is what I see in this video...although it could be more. I'd also guess he's got folklore dance training- so saidi/tahtib would be in there.
Twirling a cane is twirling a cane. If you are twirling a cane- does that automatically make it "saidi" style? From a dancer perspective I'd look to the movement (and music) context.

Tony Hanna is written about on National Geographic
Tony Hanna: National Geographic World Music

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Twirling a cane is twirling a cane. If you are twirling a cane- does that automatically make it "saidi" style? From a dancer perspective I'd look to the movement (and music) context.

Yeah, it just looked more like stuff Karim Nagi taught was specific to Tahtib -- like the over the shoulder circle and "cutting crops" moves. I've seen female dancers do Lebanese cane, and this didn't quite seem to match. But what you say makes sense :)

[quote=SamiraShuruk;383678]

Originally Posted by aziyade

In Lebanon the dancers very often do "saidi" or more accurately asaya to debke music. They throw in "homage to saidi" steps and moves- or they are always seen as such because they are moves involving stick...and they also throw in debke steps. This is what I see in this video...although it could be more. I'd also guess he's got folklore dance training- so saidi/tahtib would be in there.
Twirling a cane is twirling a cane. If you are twirling a cane- does that automatically make it "saidi" style? From a dancer perspective I'd look to the movement (and music) context.

Seconded!

Lebanon has a rich heritage of her own. Lebanese people are VERY proud of their heritage and dances. The movements we watch and describe as "Saiidi" are infact often Lebanese movements that depict Lebanese movements taken from Lebanese culture and dance heritage. Just because you do a step to the side, and touch the floor with the opposite foot doesnt make it a certain dance style -it's the context of rhythm, music interpretation and cultural representation that adds to it and finishes off what we dancers "backtrack" in order to identify movements etc. for example: lebanese music, lebanese dialect, debkeh rhythm, movement emphasis synchornized with rhythm, intent of movement expressed as in Lebanese dances.THUS, Lebanese.

Dont let the cane confuse you. I mean, look - the cane is a walking aid, weapon of protection and is used when sheparding. As far as I know people walk, need protection and shepard animals all over the world. Dance movements will reflect this part of their cultural heritage and often incorporate twirling - relevant to each their own culture :) there is only so many ways you can work a cane.

The Egyptian troupes didnt to Lebanese debkeh in their reportoires (?) - they did Sinai bedouin dances. I bet there are a bunch of debkeh line dances elsewhere in Egypt too and Momo Kadous would be a person to ask about that. I think Lebanese dancers have enough on their plate with representing THEIR cultural heritage (Caracella?) with the "each village has it's own take on Debkeh"-philosophy to deal with.

Dancers, myself included, tend to approach most of the "Arab" dances from an ethnocentric Egyptian technique, culture and expression stand point. We're BAD at that, really. We have a hard time embracing Khaleegi dances as anything else with "Egyptian hip roll with chest glides and shoulder shimmies with hair flips", or even realizing that Khaleegi is kind of a condecending term in regard to the cultural and dance heritage of the countries around the Persian Gulf. (read: I am Egyptian, I only dance that stuff from over there because it's finanicially viable when so many tourists are Khaleeg - type attitude). I think we do the same with Lebanese dances too. Lebanon is still within what's considered "Arab" territory - so we just lump it all together and say 'it's based on "Arab" movement philosophy".

There is no such thing as "Arab" movement philosophy and no disrespect, to the fantastic work of hardworking movement analysts such as Mr Reda himself, but the Egyptian approach to movement is not the worldwide answer to any dances from the Arab world. Lebanese have had their own analysis process, tradition and heritage. They reflect this in their dances.

I had to watch the clip over and over again to see what it was that could be "read" as Saiidi... My Lebanese roommate back in Sweden would be proud of his hard work to beat the Egypto-phile approach to Arab movement/dances out of me back in the day if he read this! lol :)

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

debke
YouTube - Fares karam -El Tannoura

The only caveat with Fares Karam is that his studio songs use the Saidi rhythm, but when his band plays the same songs live, like in the video of his Sydney tour, they use the Nawari rhythm.

I suspect they do this to broaden the market appeal of the cd to other Arab countries as the Saidi rhythm is very commonly used in modern songs.

This clip is the only studio track I've come across of his that use Nawari as the rhythm.

YouTube - Fares Karam - Shefta

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

A topic close to my heart because I know dancers get this confused....


Saidi
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__D-D-__T-__| (Ghawzi variation)

Nawari
1-+-2-+-3-+-4-+-|
T-D-__T-D-__T-__|

I often wish we had more rhythm *review* in our classes, because while my teacher spent a lot of time on that back in her beginning classes, I feel like I've forgotten a lot of it six years later. We were just working with a debke recently and I sure wish this little illustration had been in front of my face then!

Originally Posted by david

Dancers, myself included, tend to approach most of the "Arab" dances from an ethnocentric Egyptian technique, culture and expression stand point. We're BAD at that, really.

Excellent point, David!


What weirds me out now is that I saw a show on Saturday and I'm now hearing Nawari in EVERYTHING. Am I just looking for it, and mishearing it, or is it a super popular rhythm for Raqs Sharqi?

Originally Posted by aziyade

Excellent point, David!


What weirds me out now is that I saw a show on Saturday and I'm now hearing Nawari in EVERYTHING. Am I just looking for it, and mishearing it, or is it a super popular rhythm for Raqs Sharqi?

Weell, dear aziyade... the question is not whether Nawari is a super popular rhythm for Raqs Sharki, the question is - do YOU want Nawari to be a super popular rhythm for Raqs Sharki? *read with seductive exotic accent* LOL!!! sorry, I couldnt stop myself.

I guess it depends on what CDs you're listening to, doesnt it? I do know that the rhythm will show up in drum solos and Lebanese influenced recordings...meaning, if an Egyptian song is played by a Lebanese musician it will often be played with a Lebanese rhythm set instead of an Egyptian rhythm set. Just like Armenians, Lebanese, Turks, Greeks, Indians, French, Khaleegis and Egyptians all will claim a song and melody and say that ALL the others took it from them. I've found songs that I'm 100% sure are Indian in orgin - but the version I find is in Arabic... (of course it's Indian...the root of the word song comes from the Sanskrit words Sangriyataram, Songyam, Sangaya, Songaya and Sanjaya, right? )

I tell you, Tahtil Shubbak sounds REALLY weird to me with a Debkeh rhythm

Originally Posted by aziyade

What weirds me out now is that I saw a show on Saturday and I'm now hearing Nawari in EVERYTHING. Am I just looking for it, and mishearing it, or is it a super popular rhythm for Raqs Sharqi?

Depends what kind of a show it was. In a Lebanese club they play this rhythm all night.