Thread: question about 'habibi' in arabic pop songs

so i remember from the 'secrets of the stage' dvd (i believe it was #2) where it had the mini arabic lesson which mentioned that men refer to their love/sweety/honey, etc. etc. as 'habibi' not 'habibti' which is actually the female equivalent. and if i remember correctly it was because it is rude/impolite to say the other?
well anywho, i was listening to a cd that my arabic professor made for us (so we know the lyrics aren't 'bad' lol i believe most if not all are lovey dovey/heartbroken songs) and in the song i hear 'ya habibti'. now this made me confused cuz it was a guy singer (don't know the name off the top of my head nor the name of the song, i can investigate later on tonight but i do know it's sung in the egyptian dialect cuz part of the chorus is 'huwa da') and when i listened closely, he repeatedly said it.

my question is this: is this 'ok'? or tabu? becoming more popular in pop songs? or am i just going crazy and am not remembering correctly about y they say the one over the other? lol

thanks in advance :)

It's "Secrets of the Stage 3"..g.: and I'm the teacher. Good question, Zana. I hope I didn't say "always" or "never" in reference to the use of "habibi" instead of "habibti" in songs. I'm going to capitalize the important words in the following - I'm not shouting! The old tradition of ALMOST NEVER singing a love song to a woman IN PUBLIC is slowly changing. In some of the new pop songs, but certainly not all of them, the male singer uses "habibti", the feminine form, to sing directly to a woman. In the not so long ago (a decade or so) "old days", ALMOST ALL love songs were sung as if singing to a male, whether the singer was male or female, because it's considered impolite to address a female IN INTIMATE TERMS IN PUBLIC IN FRONT OF STRANGERS OR MERE ACQUAINTANCES. As far as I know, most of the current pop songs are still being sung as if singing to a male. Regardless of the changes which have been happening, it's still not considered o.k. to hold hands, kiss romantically IN PUBLIC, even with one's spouse, so that cultural aspect will probably continue for a long time in lyric writing.

BTW, I'm working on a DVD of my "Habibi, You Are My WHAT?! Survival Arabic for Dancers" workshop which will have more cultural notes and lots more vocabulary on it.

yess it was the 3rd and i remember u were the teacher hehe :) thanks so much for clarifying that, just wanted to make sure i wasn't hearing wrong :) i just finished my 2nd semester of arabic and have learned a lot but have trouble picking out complete sentences based on the dialect (those darned egyptians w/their crazy dialect :p). and i don't remember specifically if u said 'always' or 'never' since i saw that dvd a while ago, but i'm sure it was just my poor memory. this is the only song i've ever heard that uses 'habibiti' instead of 'habibi'

I heard somewhere that music lyrics are male because they are considered poetry, and poetry is always written in male terms, because male is the nonspecific gender in Arabic. If this is true, I could see how it might have arisen from the intimacy/gender issue. (English used to observe similar grammatical rules, but in the last 30 years, we've drifted away from saying things like, "Each student wrote in his notebook," and now most people use plural when referring to mixed or unspecified genders.)

I also wonder if the trend to address women in song lyrics has to do with more musicians composing their own material. I have a Yuri Mrakadi album where he thanks a friend in the liner notes for challenging him to be more daring with his lyrics, and he uses feminine address in some of his songs.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I heard somewhere that music lyrics are male because they are considered poetry, and poetry is always written in male terms, because male is the nonspecific gender in Arabic. If this is true, I could see how it might have arisen from the intimacy/gender issue. (English used to observe similar grammatical rules, but in the last 30 years, we've drifted away from saying things like, "Each student wrote in his notebook," and now most people use plural when referring to mixed or unspecified genders.)

I also wonder if the trend to address women in song lyrics has to do with more musicians composing their own material. I have a Yuri Mrakadi album where he thanks a friend in the liner notes for challenging him to be more daring with his lyrics, and he uses feminine address in some of his songs.

Yes, the songs are poetry and would follow poetry's guidelines, but I think you are probably right that the "male" tradition of poetry may have been started because of the gender/intimacy thing. VERY interesting about Yuri Mrakadi's being challenged to be more daring and then using feminine address in some of his songs. Sign of the (changing) times?

This is interesting in light of something Caroline Evanoff said when she was over here, which was that a lot of her more "street" friends in Cairo were starting to use the masculine all the time regardless of who they were talking to, which annoyed her because she's female not male! I suppose it was more "tough". Ah, language!

Yeah I noticed that too, that some people were using the 'masculine' form when addressing me and it was confusing, and I wanted to correct them. From my experience I would say it is more a matter of education.
Not sure what you mean by "street people" but in my mix of friends some have college degrees and some don't yet work in the same places and hang out with each other and the ones that aren't educated were using the masculine form at times whereas the educated ones never did.
And I just have to add, that it is perfectly acceptable to hold hands in public in Egypt, I see couples do it all the time, yet the kissing is definitely out of the question and you can get into trouble for it.
Also, my 'habibi' calls me 'habibi' most of the time, but in certain 'heat of passion' moments, he calls me 'habibti.' I found that pretty interesting too.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

From my experience I would say it is more a matter of education. Not sure what you mean by "street people" but in my mix of friends some have college degrees and some don't yet work in the same places and hang out with each other and the ones that aren't educated were using the masculine form at times whereas the educated ones never did.

Couldn't that also be a result of the college-educated folk being a bit more Western-influenced (i.e. more likely to deviate from tradition)?

Habibi - male, formal
Habibaiti - female, formal

Habibi - male, informal, also used informally for both genders
Habibti - female, informal

That's at least my experience and understanding :)

I would pay attention to whether it's Habibaiti or Habibti that's being said... Habibaiti is very formal and singers like George Wassouf will use it in their lyrics. Habibti however... is more endearing, personal and informal.

For those confused by formal and informal...compare it to the use of Usted and Tu in Spanish. Aap and tum in Hindi. Tusin (nasal N) and Toon in Punjabi. De/dere and du in Norwegian. Ni/er and du in Swedish.

:)

This is really interesting; I only heard of "habibi" before and know of many Habibi or Habiba people (dancers or troupes with that name). What's the difference between habiba and habibi? How do you pronounce habibti?

habiba is female
habibi / habibti / habibaiti - the I is used to denote that something belongs to someone

Not sure what you mean by "street people"

Not "street people", "street" people. The sort of people who enjoy saying things like "yo" and "sup", or whatever the latest hep lingo may be. People who want you to think they are down with the in crowd in a gritty urban sort of way. Level of education frequently has little to do with it - some people like that are working class, some are not.

hippetihoppers, yo mans, street scene people?

Hip lingo:
innit (isnt it)
in(t)cha (arent you)
s'wu' (say what)

:P

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Couldn't that also be a result of the college-educated folk being a bit more Western-influenced (i.e. more likely to deviate from tradition)?

No I don't believe this to be the case. Just because they are college educated doesn't mean they are western influenced necessarily. In fact these people are so traditional Egyptian, they don't deviate from their traditions in any way that I know of. And actually it is the people I know that are educated that stick to the correct masculine/feminine forms. Education has a lot to do with how people talk and present themselves to other people. The ones that aren't formally educated are the ones that use slang all the time and in this case we are referring to them addressing women with the masculine nouns (i.e. inta instead of inti), and really it doesn't happen too often they use the proper form most of the time and I think just slip or get lazy in their speech sometimes. And also, I noticed some of my uneducated friends are more influenced and into Western pop culture than even me.

Originally Posted by david

Habibi - male, formal
Habibaiti - female, formal

Habibi - male, informal, also used informally for both genders
Habibti - female, informal

That's at least my experience and understanding :)

I would pay attention to whether it's Habibaiti or Habibti that's being said... Habibaiti is very formal and singers like George Wassouf will use it in their lyrics. Habibti however... is more endearing, personal and informal.

For those confused by formal and informal...compare it to the use of Usted and Tu in Spanish. Aap and tum in Hindi. Tusin (nasal N) and Toon in Punjabi. De/dere and du in Norwegian. Ni/er and du in Swedish.

:)

Thank you!! Good point! Especially about the use of Habibaiti by George Wassouf.

Originally Posted by bellydancewear

No I don't believe this to be the case. Just because they are college educated doesn't mean they are western influenced necessarily. In fact these people are so traditional Egyptian, they don't deviate from their traditions in any way that I know of. And actually it is the people I know that are educated that stick to the correct masculine/feminine forms. Education has a lot to do with how people talk and present themselves to other people. The ones that aren't formally educated are the ones that use slang all the time and in this case we are referring to them addressing women with the masculine nouns (i.e. inta instead of inti), and really it doesn't happen too often they use the proper form most of the time and I think just slip or get lazy in their speech sometimes. And also, I noticed some of my uneducated friends are more influenced and into Western pop culture than even me.

I agree with these observations. Those with higher level of education tend to speak more grammatically correctly, but often slip into slang - it's natural! Those with lower level of education tend to speak slang most of the time.

Occasionally I'm addressed as "inta" rather than "inti" in Egypt and often it appears to be a slip of the tongue, not anything more significant than that. In every day speech we all make such little "changes". OTOH, the usage of "inta" for everyone may be a "street slang" fad at the moment. Stay tuned, it may be "inti" next year! ..l;, Ain't Arabic fun???!!!!..l;,..l;,

woah this thread grew overnight, i just now checked back after some days lol

Originally Posted by david

Habibi - male, formal
Habibaiti - female, formal

Habibi - male, informal, also used informally for both genders
Habibti - female, informal

That's at least my experience and understanding :)

I would pay attention to whether it's Habibaiti or Habibti that's being said... Habibaiti is very formal and singers like George Wassouf will use it in their lyrics. Habibti however... is more endearing, personal and informal.

For those confused by formal and informal...compare it to the use of Usted and Tu in Spanish. Aap and tum in Hindi. Tusin (nasal N) and Toon in Punjabi. De/dere and du in Norwegian. Ni/er and du in Swedish.

:)

it was def. habibti david :) shukran tho :) hehe

Originally Posted by leylalanty

I agree with these observations. Those with higher level of education tend to speak more grammatically correctly, but often slip into slang - it's natural! Those with lower level of education tend to speak slang most of the time.

Yeah it is actually a scientifically proven fact and there is emperical data from several countries that show that "Educational level is the best predictor of speech pattern" (Crosthwait & Billiard, 1978).

I heard another song this morning from a Lebanese artist (didn't catch his name, it is a new song) where he uses 'inti' and 'habibti' in the lyrics. I prefer it this way myself, but find it interesting that some (yet few) artist will stray from the traditional masculine forms and use the feminine forms in their lyrics.

Those with higher level of education tend to speak more grammatically correctly, but often slip into slang - it's natural! Those with lower level of education tend to speak slang most of the time.

Although, according to Labov et al - sorry, I don't have the paper and I don't have the date, but it's fairly old - just because a person is educated and speaking in an educated manner doesn't mean they speak more grammatically correctly than someone who is not. In fact often it's the opposite. And if I didn't believe it before, I do now I've transcribed interviews and focus groups and supervisory sessions. People with educations, and I am one of them, talk round in circles, don't complete sentences, change tenses, wander off in different directions and use big words without actually completing their statements. People without educations say subject verb object. They might be *swearing* and they might use a less "sophisticated" word for something, but their grammar is bang on.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Although, according to Labov et al - sorry, I don't have the paper and I don't have the date, but it's fairly old - just because a person is educated and speaking in an educated manner doesn't mean they speak more grammatically correctly than someone who is not. In fact often it's the opposite. And if I didn't believe it before, I do now I've transcribed interviews and focus groups and supervisory sessions. People with educations, and I am one of them, talk round in circles, don't complete sentences, change tenses, wander off in different directions and use big words without actually completing their statements. People without educations say subject verb object. They might be *swearing* and they might use a less "sophisticated" word for something, but their grammar is bang on.

i can see how that can be true. think of when u're learning a new language: u r speaking the way u r taught in the classroom. all those that r fluent often use slang, don't pronounce the whole words, use figures of speech, etc. etc. so those that are fluent can be considered the more "educated" within the language while those of us that are learning as trying so hard to be correct with our grammar and pronunciation, yet we're the "less educated" in this sense (i know this isn't set in stone, this is just within this context). hell even in writing/typing, those of us that are more accustomed to the language will often mistype words and use shortcuts, bad grammar, yadda yadda.

my german professor once said that only those fluent in english can screw up their grammar because it's socially/culturally (within America she meant) understood and accepted while someone like me who's not american, altho fluent (and told i've had a slight accent-i don't hear it but oh well lol) can't do that because it just seems like i didn't learn the language properly.

Originally Posted by zfejzic

i can see how that can be true. think of when u're learning a new language: u r speaking the way u r taught in the classroom. all those that r fluent often use slang, don't pronounce the whole words, use figures of speech, etc. etc. so those that are fluent can be considered the more "educated" within the language while those of us that are learning as trying so hard to be correct with our grammar and pronunciation, yet we're the "less educated" in this sense (i know this isn't set in stone, this is just within this context). hell even in writing/typing, those of us that are more accustomed to the language will often mistype words and use shortcuts, bad grammar, yadda yadda.

I understand what you are saying. Makes one wonder what it really means to be fluent in a language versus being educated in one. I only studied German, Spanish and Arabic outside my native English. Yet I know that when I am speaking formal or Modern Standard Arabic (even if it is just one or two vocabulary words) to the native Egyptians in Egypt they will say, "oh you speak 'good' Arabic or 'educated' Arabic. So although they are the fluent ones in the colloquial language, they don't all know the MSA as well and will be impressed with my knowledge of it. Whereas I feel like I am not well educated in Arabic because I am not nearly as fluent as they are.

I know in my Spanish class years ago the professor told me that the native speakers take the class for an easy A but usually don't do so well in the class because although they can speak it they didn't learn how to write it. And those of us who weren't native speakers would have to work harder at it and we did learn how to spell correctly and use the proper grammar in our writing, in fact better than most of the native speakers in the class. Interestingly enough when I took MSA in College it was the opposite of my Spanish class (which was at a different college). The native speakers all did better than us non-native speakers in everything; comprehension, speaking, and writing. UGH!! It was frustrating and seemed so unfair. Then I went to Egypt and studied both MSA and Egyptian colloquial and found that the students that had a good grasp of grammar did the best. At least there were no native speakers in these classes.
As a research Psychologist who spent 2 years of graduate work studying language processing I will tell you that language is a diverse and complex subject. So don't feel so bad if you are not as fluent in a new language, at least you are learning it correctly. And the more you study and practice it the more comfortable and fluent you will become. It takes time, patience and a lot of hard work!

all those that r fluent often use slang, don't pronounce the whole words, use figures of speech, etc. etc. so those that are fluent can be considered the more "educated" within the language

No, but this is a difference in native speakers. Labov was actually writing about urban African-American kids, who at the time of the research were being called "without language". He and his fellow researchers demonstrated that urban uneducated African Americans speak a perfectly functional dialect of English, which has some slightly different verbs, for instance, all of which work and stick to their own rules.

He also compared two accounts of ghosts, one from a college educated man and one from a street kid. The street kid, while speaking what is now sometimes referred to as "Ebonics", demonstrated better grammatical structure in speech than the highly educated man, partly because he spoke straightforwardly rather than faffed about trying to make sure the listener knew how clever and educated he was.