Thread: Attention: Dancers who have video clips using Oriental Fantasy songs

I just received the following message from Beata & Horacio in my email, forwarded by a friend of mine:

we would like to point your attention to something that has been bothering us for some time:

We are happy if dancers like our music. We have recorded more beautiful music in Cairo again. We will not publish this music any time soon, though. The reason is that many dancers dance and teach to our music (just take the music piece "Talisman" / CD "Oriental Fantasy Vol. 12" as an example!), but not very many people buy the music from us!? Mmmh...

Aside from very high monetary investment we put a lot of love, time, effort and input into our productions, so of course we are disappointed and not motivated to publish more CDs.

We are asking you to please add a credit when you publish your clips on YouTube or other platforms:

• name of the piece
• CD title
• Tanzakademie Cifuentes - Beata & Horacio Cifuentes

Please add this until May 31, 2009 to avoid a blockage of your clips due to copyright!

The use of music or choreograpies for DVD or other publications is, of course, bound to legal contracts, see
www.oriental-fantasy.com/english/ urheberrechte.html

We hope that the copyright will be respected in our dance like in the rest of professional business worldwide! We always strive for acceptance in the dance world, copyright laws are part of it, too.

To view an example of correct and friendly business manner please visit
Professional Belly Dancer - Michelle Joyce - arabic dance

For the exact opposite - rude and ruthless lack of creativity and respect - like illegal use of music, copying 1 to 1 of choreographies (Msafer Wahdak, Sheherazade, drum solos, ... and more) and costumes, stealing show ideas (life-size dolls, drag, "face drum solos", ... and more) just watch the Oasis-DVDs from St. Petersburg.

In the age of internet the world is more transparent. Let's all live up to it and make it worthwhile for producers to keep bringing more beautiful music and shows to the dance lovers!

I have a clip of me performing to Gala Oriental on YouTube and my website, and although I identified the song, I did not originally include the CD name or the link as is being instructed above. I have added the info to my website and YouTube as well.

In the last few months I bought 5 of their CDs. I found the buying process easier through Tatika's Treasures. They carry legal originals.
I'd love for the Cifunetes's to have an easier purchasing process on their website - even if it's just through paypal.

Good for them.

We should all give music credits on our you tube clips when possible (and be using legal copies).

Here in the UK, it's possible to buy Oriental Fantasy Cd's from Aladdins Cave - Belly dance costume & belly dance supplies at Aladdin's Cave I'm pretty sure they will ship anywhere and have excellent customer service (I am a very happy customer) They also do online payments and Paypal.

Just for information on this thread.

Nikki

Ok, I'm a fan of Beata and Horacio - I'll admit that up front.

I think fair play to them, they are trying to address an issue that concerns them and they are doing it in a polite way.

I do think it would be good if they could revamp the purchasing process through their website. I've bought direct from them (in person), via Aladdin's Cave in England and via Amera's Palace in Australia but I'd probably buy more direct if it was easier.

same here, i've bought their cds in bulk to teach my students, but if i can i buy them at bella's or other sellers, i'll get them there, because it's a hassle getting them through their website unfortunately. i hope they set up some easier ordering and paying process.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

In the last few months I bought 5 of their CDs. I found the buying process easier through Tatika's Treasures. They carry legal originals.
I'd love for the Cifunetes's to have an easier purchasing process on their website - even if it's just through paypal.

I don't think it's a matter of where you buy their cd's, is it? I understand it's a matter of getting their approval to perform their choreographys *as they are taught* and giving credit where credit is due. There are many youtube videos (and here on Bhuz) where dancers ask, "where can I get this song?" or, "How can I get a copy of this song?"and that is how the illegal trading happens. Beata states this here:
Oriental Fantasy

yes, it doesnt matter where you buy it, but i think more people would buy it rather than asking "where can i get a copy of", if the buying would be made a little easier ;-)

Definitely the issue isn't where you buy it from, it's about due credit.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

yes, it doesnt matter where you buy it, but i think more people would buy it rather than asking "where can i get a copy of", if the buying would be made a little easier ;-)

Yes, I agree. Wire transfer is a little difficult for some of us in the U.S.

Wow, sounds like they are monitoring youtube.

I think there request is very reasonable. I wish all youtube posts woul post the music info. It sure would clear up a lot of space on bhuz with dancers trying to identify music they see in a clip.

Yes!

It would be nice if You-tube required it of their music & dance vids.

How many times on a video do you read in the comments "what is the name of this song? where can I get this music?"

Originally Posted by norma

Wow, sounds like they are monitoring youtube.

I think there request is very reasonable. I wish all youtube posts woul post the music info. It sure would clear up a lot of space on bhuz with dancers trying to identify music they see in a clip.

Actually, all a music producer has to do is to submit their music/sound tracks to youtube and make youtube aware of the copyright on given tracks. Then youtube has it in their interest to remove any material that infringes upon the copyright, so youtube removes the material and monitors when we are talking about as many occurances as with Oriental Fantasy's productions - not the artist/producer.

The fact that they have a requirement of what needs to be listed of information about the music used in a video shows that they have the dancer's best interest at hand. They dont want all video clips removed or dubbed over with something else - but they do want the rightful credits listed.

I find it very understandable and fair, actually. Dancing is a cost-prohibitive sport - especially at a higher level... as much funds as Oriental Fantasy has committed to their music, shows, choreographies, dancers, material, business - it is understandable that they would make efforts to protect their investments. As does PeKo/HMC as well - maybe not as clearly as this, but they do.

Phew just updated all my youtube clips. Seeing as I am so fussy about giving credit to photographers etc I cna't believe I hadn't thought of this.

I only had one O-F clip up, but I did credit it. I'll be updating my other vids with similar info - except there's one clip that I can't find the CD for - I think it may be out of print - and that's the clip I get the most requests for information on, ironically enough...

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

In the last few months I bought 5 of their CDs. I found the buying process easier through Tatika's Treasures. They carry legal originals.
I'd love for the Cifunetes's to have an easier purchasing process on their website - even if it's just through paypal.

i was having the hardest time aswell trying to figure out how to transfer the money and what the price was.

Originally Posted by zafirah

Phew just updated all my youtube clips. Seeing as I am so fussy about giving credit to photographers etc I cna't believe I hadn't thought of this.

Same here!

It is very important that the dance community give credit where credit is due not only producers of the music, title, etc., but also to choreographers they immitate on video clips. I often see dancers/students performing pieces they either learned in class or workshop, or simply copied it from watching on videos or youtube without giving due credit to the choreographer. We need to be appreciative and respectful about others' work and talent and giving due credit is the proper manner to do so.

Originally Posted by sahardance

It is very important that the dance community give credit where credit is due not only producers of the music, title, etc., but also to choreographers they immitate on video clips. We need to be appreciative and respectful about others' work and talent and giving due credit is the proper manner to do so.

Absolutely! It takes so little to give respect & proper credit to others work & in doing so elevates our standards to where they should be.

I agree that we need to give credit due. It would be really nice however if the H. Cifuentes Cd's did not cost 5.00 more than most other Cd's and if they were made easily available to everyone. not to mention that most places that do carry them do not have clips of the songs. One of the main reasons why a song or 2 are given away is that the Cd's are not available and the cost is prohibitive.
I have gone thru my Tube vids and refraised my info to reflect this demand. I have always paid full price for their music and videos or I have paid half with a friend (because of the prohibitive cost).
I have been using their music for years and appreciate all that they have put into their productions. But this has the smell of repression and prohibition to it. Frankly if they want to sell more Cd's they should make them available at a reasonable price and individually.They should be happy that they are making any money off of us at all given the VERY limited Access that we do have to them. If this continues to be an issue for them then maybe they just need to stop selling them. IMHO if they continue to be as restrictive as they are or worse I will no longer promote their productions. Why would I pay 22.50 for music I can not use,f::,f::,m::
Andrea

Originally Posted by jasani

I don't think it's a matter of where you buy their cd's, is it? I understand it's a matter of getting their approval to perform their choreographys *as they are taught* and giving credit where credit is due. There are many youtube videos (and here on Bhuz) where dancers ask, "where can I get this song?" or, "How can I get a copy of this song?"and that is how the illegal trading happens. Beata states this here:
Oriental Fantasy

I was merely posting where I bought mine from so others can support the artist and do the same...g.: Someone posting their video on youtube also hopefully attained their music through legal means, thus also supporting more quality music to be made.
it's quite easy from Tatika's treasures (and no wire transfer).
...and of course- proper credit where credit is due. ..g.:

I have always wondered how certain artists expect to sell their cds without providing any sound samples. Are we supposed to think "Oh well, if it's by them it must be good"?

Originally Posted by jahbie

I have always wondered how certain artists expect to sell their cds without providing any sound samples. Are we supposed to think "Oh well, if it's by them it must be good"?

I got into the habbit of carrying a cd/tape player with me to events so that I could listen to cds before I bought them. Most vendors have an open copy available and if they don't they usually will open one for you.

There are certain producers that I buy sound unheard (sight unseen) because I know I won't be disappointed though the last O.F. I bought was lacking in soul and substance unlike their previous ones so I have not purchased any more w/ out hearing some clips first. Given the 5.00 upcharge for their cds i think it is justified.

Again they need to come into the 21 century and make their music available competitively before they start complaining that they aren't making enough money which is what this whole thing is stemming from. Its always money.
I totally get where they are coming from, i have had my choreo stolen (used w/out credit) before and its frustrating.
Keep in mind that they have often used songs but use a different name on their CDs so they don't have to pay the usage fees or give credit which they don't. Case in point their version of Howa Sahih on O.F. vol 6. It is not named it simply called Kanoon Solo there by avoiding licencing. Arabian dream from O.F. vol. 10 is an old farouk Salame song produced by Danial Der Shakian but no credits are given in the liner note for either. There are other songs like this in the various vols. Another One is piece written for Fifi Abdou but again no credits.
I find it very hard to take this demand very seriously when they them selves are in violation.
Andrea

And unless they are going to pay me to advertise THEIR studio on MY pages I will not be including the last line. If some one is watching my vid then they can also google for the name themselves.


<<We are asking you to please add a credit when you publish your clips on YouTube or other platforms:

• name of the piece
• CD title
• Tanzakademie Cifuentes - Beata & Horacio Cifuentes>>>

Originally Posted by baadrobot

I got into the habbit of carrying a cd/tape player with me to events so that I could listen to cds before I bought them. Most vendors have an open copy available and if they don't they usually will open one for you.

There are certain producers that I buy sound unheard (sight unseen) because I know I won't be disappointed though the last O.F. I bought was lacking in soul and substance unlike their previous ones so I have not purchased any more w/ out hearing some clips first. Given the 5.00 upcharge for their cds i think it is justified.

Again they need to come into the 21 century and make their music available competitively before they start complaining that they aren't making enough money which is what this whole thing is stemming from. Its always money.
I totally get where they are coming from, i have had my choreo stolen (used w/out credit) before and its frustrating.
Keep in mind that they have often used songs but use a different name on their CDs so they don't have to pay the usage fees or give credit which they don't. Case in point their version of Howa Sahih on O.F. vol 6. It is not named it simply called Kanoon Solo there by avoiding licencing. Arabian dream from O.F. vol. 10 is an old farouk Salame song produced by Danial Der Shakian but no credits are given in the liner note for either. There are other songs like this in the various vols. Another One is piece written for Fifi Abdou but again no credits.
I find it very hard to take this demand very seriously when they them selves are in violation.
Andrea

Good point Andrea! It drives me crazy when a popular classic Arabic song is renamed on a CD. I thought it was because maybe they didn't know the name of the original song. It never occurred to me that maybe they were skirting copywright issues! I've seen this happen a LOT!

Yes Norma this is a way of skirting legal copywrite. it is also popular to cut, edit or add to a song thereby changing the original copywrite. Since most of the clips that I have up of me using their music is cut in some part for time constraints it is not identical to the original and is not necessarily subject to copywrite laws per-se.

The few items I mentioned are just that "a few" there are many more that they have done this way. Other producers have done the same.

Again I will say that unless they are willing to pay me to advertise for them I will not add their link simply because they are NOT playing fair here.,m::,f::

Originally Posted by baadrobot

Yes Norma this is a way of skirting legal copywrite. it is also popular to cut, edit or add to a song thereby changing the original copywrite. Since most of the clips that I have up of me using their music is cut in some part for time constraints it is not identical to the original and is not necessarily subject to copywrite laws per-se.

The few items I mentioned are just that "a few" there are many more that they have done this way. Other producers have done the same.

Again I will say that unless they are willing to pay me to advertise for them I will not add their link simply because they are NOT playing fair here.,m::,f::

Preach sister,
so THAT"S way some arabic classics are renamed on their cds like that
they would make a fortune if their mp3s were available for download. a fortune; their music is great, I don't know why they don't do it...

Apparently cuz they're stupidly exclusive and don't want to play with others. Maybe for them the cost of upgrading their modus operandi its prohibitive but I suspect that they would rather have us pay for their upgrade as is typical hence the "please advertise our studio on your listing no matter where so we can get your business and your money demand". Seen it, been there, done that, not buying it.,s::,s::,s::,s::,s::
They need to pay for their own advertising and upgrades to make more money not suck us to death with exorbitant cd costs plus shipping and free advertising. Hey If I could get you to do that for me well ...............

Sorry I am not trying to be mean with that but honestly kids how much do you pay for your advertising for your studios, CD's, DVD's, etc to then have to pay for a studio that you get nothing from not even advertising or banner swaps. Really lets be business like here since they are.

Sorry I have had a very bad day and I am VERY grumpy but I also really hate when undeserving dancers start demanding unreasonable things from lesser dancers because they think they can. I have always supported The Cifuentes's and am never disappointed by the CD's and DVD's that they produce but I have also always been aware of their arrogance and really feel that arrogance is a sign of a really bad dancer and person.
Support them if you will and I will buy their CD's when they are good enough for my standards but don't forget that they are just like you and me ON EVERY LEVEL!!!!!we pay for, they pay for, we fight for, they fight for, they have just figured out how to circumvent the copywrite laws and want you to pay for it..p::.p::.p::..cr.:..cr.:..cr.:.w.:.w.:.w.:,m::, m::,m::,f::,f::,f::,f::