Thread: Help Me Explain The Difference Between Debke and Saidi Rhythms

I can feel it, but I don't know that I can explain it well to my students. I would like to be able to, especially since "Shashkin/Ya Ein Mulletein" (did I get that second title right?) is so often misused as a saidi number.

Thanks.
- Leela

I "think" I've figured it out, though I have yet to discuss it with an expert. In Saidi, the doums are on beats 1, AND, 3. In Debke, I believe the first doum is actually on the AND (or even between the 1 and the AND) after beat 1, which gives it that hiccuping feeling.

So Saidi is:

Doum-tek-Doum-Doum-tek

and Debke is:

Tek-Doum-Tek-Doum Doum-tek

This is for the basic versions of both, and it's only my theory. I'd love to know if I'm on track with this....

Tex, that sounds right according to what Nisaa and others posted on a thread on this topic a while back. Leela, you might want to look for that thread, it had a LOT of detail and discussion.

I'm extra confused, because although Ya Ein Mulletein is debke, there's a clip of Soraya doing full-out Saidi assaya to it with a live band (also referenced here on Bhuz somewhere). One would think she'd know better, so I'm wondering if it's ever OK to do Saidi to debke -- can debke be played with a Saidi 'flavor' or something? I'm very confused.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Tex, that sounds right according to what Nisaa and others posted on a thread on this topic a while back. Leela, you might want to look for that thread, it had a LOT of detail and discussion.

I'm extra confused, because although Ya Ein Mulletein is debke, there's a clip of Soraya doing full-out Saidi assaya to it with a live band (also referenced here on Bhuz somewhere). One would think she'd know better, so I'm wondering if it's ever OK to do Saidi to debke -- can debke be played with a Saidi 'flavor' or something? I'm very confused.

"Ya Ein" seems to be pretty ubiquitous around the Middle East. I wonder if it's been used by Soraya and her band because debke and saidi are already so close rhythmically and it's a fun song. I think that it may be a case where we are bigger sticklers for the "rules" in the West than they are over there.

In New York, a lot of the bands that have Greek/Armenian/Turkish musicians in them will play that song for a saidi. No one's ever told me it's bad to use it as such, I just don't particularly like it, because I'm picky, and because once you feel it as a debke, you can't undo it. I also haven't said no to it in a set, when I know it's one of the only Arabic numbers the band knows. It's OK. However, last time it was played for me, it did end up turning into a debke line, because someone in the audience was an excellent debke dancer. I appreciated that.

I'm teaching some saidi stuff right now, so I want to clarify this for students, since I know they'll hear it out there. I just want them to understand what they're hearing, but I don't want to tell them it's wrong. Edited to add, because what do I really know? Just my little tiny body of knowledge.

- Leela

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Tex, that sounds right according to what Nisaa and others posted on a thread on this topic a while back. Leela, you might want to look for that thread, it had a LOT of detail and discussion.

I'm extra confused, because although Ya Ein Mulletein is debke, there's a clip of Soraya doing full-out Saidi assaya to it with a live band (also referenced here on Bhuz somewhere). One would think she'd know better, so I'm wondering if it's ever OK to do Saidi to debke -- can debke be played with a Saidi 'flavor' or something? I'm very confused.

I worked with a Lebanese band for years. They frequently played Ya Ein Mulletein for me when I whipped out the cane. Maybe because they were a Lebanese band and Lebanese debke's can often be used for cane work?

Hmm, Norma, that's really good to know! I would love to know the answer to that. I'll go ask my Lebanese-specialist friend. I guess I always thought that non-Arab ME bands might play it as a Saidi because it's close enough in their minds.

I've never seen Lebanese assaya and would love to learn some - I've heard that it's really fun.

- Leela

Here's a very fun Lebanese cane vid. She incorporates some debke steps into her dance, and it's very energetic.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ubj_hjLdVc]YouTube - Lebanese Part II[/ame]

Here's the other thread on this topic, sooo much info in it, I think you'll love it!

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/music-trad...di-rhythm.html

There are many different rhythms used for debke, including malfouf, maqsoum, and nawari, which is often confused with saidi. Debke is done to 4/4 as well 6/8 time.

Check out Nourhan Sharif's rhythm CD series!

This is a typical Tabal/Nawari rhythm that you will hear and Lebanese functions

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7BPtF1snj0&fmt=18]YouTube - Fares Karam Sydney Australia Live[/ame]

On a side note, Issam Houshan once told a drumming workshop that he tests dances in auditions if they know the difference between Nawari and Saidi. If they don't the dance gets crossed off the list.

Basic Nawari that is shown in the video above is

TD-TD-T-

Great video clips! My god, who could mistake Saidi for Nawari? They're totally different in feeling. One feels like Egypt, the other doesn't, for one thing.

Looking forward to watching more of these clips once I have my coffee in hand.

- Leela

Yeah, what y'all said, Nawari is probably the Dabke rhythm you are looking for, because it is the one closest to Saidi and it is the rhythm used in ya ein mouletain aka shashkin.

Norma is dead on about the Lebanese using debke music for assaya. Nadia gamal dances to ya ein on the legend DVD with her cane in hand and the above video clips posted are also good examples.

Sometimes I think dancers forget assaya is traditionally used more than just in the Said. So I'm speaking out in defence of all dancers doing assaya to ya ein mouletain, including Soraya, and I'm going to assume most of them know what they are doing...probably.

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

I can feel it, but I don't know that I can explain it well to my students. I would like to be able to, especially since "Shashkin/Ya Ein Mulletein" (did I get that second title right?) is so often misused as a saidi number.

Thanks.
- Leela

You're allowed to use cane for Shashkin because Lebanese-style dancers may use cane during a debke piece. In fact, if you have a Lebanese band, this might be the cane song that you get if you ask for a song for your cane. Cane doesn't belong to Saidi alone. There's a different style of cane usage for Lebanese style. FWIW, this is only my observation.

From taking a debke class with Karim Nagi, I know that there are several debke rhythms and accordingly different steps to go with them, so it may not be as simple as "debke goes like this and saidi goes like this."

True, it's definitely not simple, and there are a lot of different rhythms. It's just that the feeling is different. So I want to transmit that to my students. And it's good to know that this is commonly used for Lebanese assaya. I've had little exposure to that, and again, that's something I would want to transmit to students: that there are different assaya styles from different places (apparently there's a Suez Canal style, too), and different things you can do with it. My point isn't that it's simple, or that using a cane with "Ya Ein Mulletein" is wrong, only that I want to explain the differences, and while I feel them, I'm not confident that I can articulate them. Even after years of studying with Karim, and Mohamed Shahin, and more.

My students were asking me about cane balancing the other day. I said I wasn't sure where it came from. I also said that it might possibly be more "fusion", but that I'm not sure - I hope that wasn't too dogmatic of a statement. I followed that by asking them to do their own research and tell me what they find. I think next week I'll tell them that there are few things that are truly wrong to do with a cane, short of sticking it down your pants or riding it around the stage like a broomstick. I personally don't have any problem with balancing it in different places - I like laying it across my collarbone in a backbend.

I did point out that snake arms are not really very Saidi. Was that overly dogmatic of me? For everything you say isn't done "over there", you'll see a superstar Egyptian dancer doing it.

Edited to add that while searching for a source for bulk canes last week, I stumbled across a funny piece of fakelore on a vendor's website (which shall remain nameless): that Saidi dance comes from Port Said. Haw!

- Leela

Howaida Hachem is a famous Lebanese dancer who danced cane to debke music.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVGd6o3X8U]YouTube - Howaida Hachem[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHR_DmCtTSk]YouTube - Lebanese Belly Dancer Howaida Hachem رقص شرقي هويدا هاشم[/ame]

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

I think next week I'll tell them that there are few things that are truly wrong to do with a cane, short of sticking it down your pants or riding it around the stage like a broomstick....

- Leela

hehehe, this reminds me of a clip one of my teachers showed me of an Egyptian dancer sticking the cane down her cleavage, so it came out the bottom of her bra and hung down there when she danced. It was HORRRRRIIIIBBBBLLLLEEEE!...shudder... So yeah, even the horrendously tasteless can be "traditional"...so to speak. I like to put forward, that just because an Egyptian did it, doesn't mean you have to.

Getting the feeling right for the different styles is difficult. I think each dancer just has to seek out many examples. Watch dancers and that's the best way to start understanding how to get the right feeling for the different styles. After all, there are ways to use the cane that are just wrong for Middle Eastern dance, like:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1vH2rjUshk]YouTube - Michigan J. Frog[/ame]

or

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j02k9t4rP50]YouTube - Fred Astaire[/ame]

that last one is awesome...I was looking for the slo-mo cane dance ol' Fred does, but this one's great too.

Originally Posted by shems

Sometimes I think dancers forget assaya is traditionally used more than just in the Said. So I'm speaking out in defence of all dancers doing assaya to ya ein mouletain, including Soraya, and I'm going to assume most of them know what they are doing...probably.

I'm with you on this, but for the record, Soraya wasn't just doing assaya, she was doing Saidi *with* an assaya. If I recall.

I'm not questioning her, though, I assume she's an authority on the matter. BUT I got knocked down at a competition for doing it...

Nothing's ever nice and simple, is it?

Michigan J. Frog, a parable we should all know. God, this Fred Astaire clip is divine. You know, that leads me to a question: was there any influence from American vaudeville on Egyptian dance, cane dance specifically? I realize that at first glance, the answer to this would seem to be an obvious no. But in JtE 1, there was some discussion about American and European vaudeville troupes performing in Egypt during the construction of the Suez Canal. So I wonder if any Egyptian choreographers saw American movies or theater dance, and got some ideas.

No such thing as purity, anywhere. Unless you're a singing frog.

- Leela

Well, we know Mahmoud Reda was influenced by Fred Astaire, right? There were some aspects of the clip above that weren't totally dissimilar from things you'd do in Middle Eastern dance with an assaya -- like hitting the floor with the cane to emphasize something happening in the music, for instance. (Although I wouldn't necessarily say that's a matter of influence as it may be simply that there are only so many things you can do with a cane.)

There are a few times in the clip where he gets the cane to pop up from the floor ... how's he doing that? I can't see it well enough. With his foot? I'd totally steal that move if I could tell how it's happening.

Originally Posted by NisreenBrooklyn

Well, we know Mahmoud Reda was influenced by Fred Astaire, right? There were some aspects of the clip above that weren't totally dissimilar from things you'd do in Middle Eastern dance with an assaya -- like hitting the floor with the cane to emphasize something happening in the music, for instance. (Although I wouldn't necessarily say that's a matter of influence as it may be simply that there are only so many things you can do with a cane.)

There are a few times in the clip where he gets the cane to pop up from the floor ... how's he doing that? I can't see it well enough. With his foot? I'd totally steal that move if I could tell how it's happening.

I was wondering the same thing. It looks like it just flies into his hand!

Aszmara once taught a really cool cane trick - hold the crook end, throw the cane into the air and catch the straight end in your same hand. The only way to do it is to keep your eye on the end as you go. Is that what he's doing? My machine isn't playing clips well right now.

- Leela

No, the cane is just flat on the floor, like lying there horizontally ... not just with the floor end on the floor, vertically, like you'd normally hold a cane.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Here's a very fun Lebanese cane vid. She incorporates some debke steps into her dance, and it's very energetic.

YouTube - Lebanese Part II

This is a bit off the topic. Could anyone tell me where I can find a skirt like this? I am straight up and down--have no hips. It looks like a skirt like this will help. Thanks.

Originally Posted by npeterko

This is a bit off the topic. Could anyone tell me where I can find a skirt like this? I am straight up and down--have no hips. It looks like a skirt like this will help. Thanks.

You can get this effect by taking a regular circle skirt and tucking the edges of the back panel into your hip belt, creating the swags on either side. Works with all kinds of circle skirts, from 3 panel chiffon to multi-tiered tribal style. You can also achieve this by tucking a veil or scarf into your belt in the same way and draping it behind you.

Originally Posted by npeterko

This is a bit off the topic. Could anyone tell me where I can find a skirt like this? I am straight up and down--have no hips. It looks like a skirt like this will help. Thanks.

She is wearing a chiffon circle skirt with different layers. Looks like maybe 3 layers. Not all are the same length. The she tucked in the sides for hoop poofs. You could achieve with a layered basic 3 panel circle skirt.

I LOVE the singing frog! Hands down my favorite WB cartoon ever.

Originally Posted by flimflamgirl

No such thing as purity, anywhere. Unless you're a singing frog.

- Leela

I think there's some movie magic going on with this. The first time it happens, it's not the same cane he used before, which he had kicked to the side and then danced up to this new one. The next time, he danced away from the cane, it was off-screen while he danced a little, then came back to it.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I was wondering the same thing. It looks like it just flies into his hand!

Originally Posted by NisreenBrooklyn

Well, we know Mahmoud Reda was influenced by Fred Astaire, right? There were some aspects of the clip above that weren't totally dissimilar from things you'd do in Middle Eastern dance with an assaya -- like hitting the floor with the cane to emphasize something happening in the music, for instance. (Although I wouldn't necessarily say that's a matter of influence as it may be simply that there are only so many things you can do with a cane.)

There are a few times in the clip where he gets the cane to pop up from the floor ... how's he doing that? I can't see it well enough. With his foot? I'd totally steal that move if I could tell how it's happening.

Originally Posted by norma

Maybe because they were a Lebanese band and Lebanese debke's can often be used for cane work?

That was my first thought too.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

You can get this effect by taking a regular circle skirt and tucking the edges of the back panel into your hip belt, creating the swags on either side. Works with all kinds of circle skirts, from 3 panel chiffon to multi-tiered tribal style. You can also achieve this by tucking a veil or scarf into your belt in the same way and draping it behind you.

Thank you for the reply. Do I tuck the side or bottom edges? Do I pull the edges above the belt or not? Shall I pin them? Will it make the skirt short?