Thread: Sagat with baladi taxim?

I know Egyptian dancers sometimes use finger cymbals when dancing baladi style -- I've often used them myself when dancing in a galabeya to something earthy like Fatme Sirhan's 'Ghanili Shwaye Shwaye' for instance.

Right now I'm working on a baladi taxim (aka baladi progression aka tet baladi) and I'm very drawn toward using them. But I can't remember ever seeing them in that context before...

What do Bhuzzers say?

Absolutely they can be used then. In fact a lot of Egyptian dancers would only whip out the zills when they got to the beledi. I can't think of any video examples off the top of my head.

That's a good question. I don't recall ever seeing an Egyptian dancer play them in this section tho, wonder if there's videos of any - if you're on tribe that's a good question for the Egyptian style tribe.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I know Egyptian dancers sometimes use finger cymbals when dancing baladi style -- I've often used them myself when dancing in a galabeya to something earthy like Fatme Sirhan's 'Ghanili Shwaye Shwaye' for instance.

Right now I'm working on a baladi taxim (aka baladi progression aka tet baladi) and I'm very drawn toward using them. But I can't remember ever seeing them in that context before...

What do Bhuzzers say?

Ditto to what Norma said.
Yasmin always says the beledi section is very common for dancers to whip out the zills. In the clubs she worked out that was often when the dancers were going out into the audience- and this way, the audience that wasn't close to the dancer still had an awareness she was still around.
Maybe one reason it's not filmed as much is because it just doesn't sound as good on film. ???? That's just a guess though.
Does Fifi use sagat in the "cherry picker" video? I haven't seen it in a couple years, but I vaguely remember her "fixing" something...but she could have just as easily just been "fluffing the girls". ..l;,

haha, Fifi is always "fixing something!" I love it! But using sagat in an actual beledi taqsim is different than putting them on for a regular song, know what I mean?

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Ditto to what Norma said.
Yasmin always says the beledi section is very common for dancers to whip out the zills. In the clubs she worked out that was often when the dancers were going out into the audience- and this way, the audience that wasn't close to the dancer still had an awareness she was still around.
Maybe one reason it's not filmed as much is because it just doesn't sound as good on film. ???? That's just a guess though.
Does Fifi use sagat in the "cherry picker" video? I haven't seen it in a couple years, but I vaguely remember her "fixing" something...but she could have just as easily just been "fluffing the girls". ..l;,

As I said, for earthy baladi style dancing I see them worn, but I can't think of an example of baladi taxim with them?

Like, I can imagine going out into the audience for a lively rendition of Bint El Balad or Tahtil Shibbak with sagat, but during a baladi progression... not so much!

It's a rather specialized subcategory of baladi, so I'm just checking...

Originally Posted by Lauren_

As I said, for earthy baladi style dancing I see them worn, but I can't think of an example of baladi taxim with them?

Like, I can imagine going out into the audience for a lively rendition of Bint El Balad or Tahtil Shibbak with sagat, but during a baladi progression... not so much!

It's a rather specialized subcategory of baladi, so I'm just checking...

Are you talking about the actual taqsim part where it starts out typically with an organ or accordian, or the part where it progesses into the actual beledi rhythm then into a drum solo? You'd play them for the 2nd part, not the 1st.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Right now I'm working on a baladi taxim (aka baladi progression aka tet baladi) and I'm very drawn toward using them. But I can't remember ever seeing them in that context before...

What do Bhuzzers say?

I say, if you're drawn to it and it feels right, go for it. You don't need Bhuz permission! ..l;, For the record though, there is a fabulous dancer in my area who busts our sagat half way through her taxim baladi. She somehow "hides" the zills in the back of her belt, then they just magically appear on her fingers. At least, that the illusion....its really lovely. Go with your gut!

are you talking "taxism" ?
melody with no rythem?
alternate, rl rl rl rl with an edge click

This very subject came up in one of the teleconference calls with Ranya Renee--her very educated opinion was yes, by all means, sagat are perfectly appropriate for baladi taqsim :-)

Originally Posted by elljay

I say, if you're drawn to it and it feels right, go for it. You don't need Bhuz permission! ..l;,

What!? .w.: Just go out there on my own instincts and risk being ostracized?!? No, I have to stay here in the warm safety of the pack... stragglers get picked off, ya know!

Yes, I'm talking about playing them after the rhythm comes in, not during the taxim part, although I'm not sure I'll wait til it's in full force... I think I'll just go with my gut, then.

ETA: Oooh, if Ranya Renee OK'd it, that's good enough for me, she seems to be the reigning queen of the form. Her DVD is next on my 'to buy' list!

I love how they sound once it gets into the regular rhythm. Nadira Jamal performed with zills in a lovely baladi taxim she did a few weeks ago. I wish I could play my zills well enough to throw them into somethign as complex as a baladi taqsim (not that the rhythm is complex, just a lot going on in my head ALREADY to throw in another thing.)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

What!? .w.: Just go out there on my own instincts and risk being ostracized?!? No, I have to stay here in the warm safety of the pack... stragglers get picked off, ya know!

Yes, I'm talking about playing them after the rhythm comes in, not during the taxim part, although I'm not sure I'll wait til it's in full force... I think I'll just go with my gut, then.

Yep, 'cos I'd put this in the Amcab section ..g.:

I think part of the problem is the multiple uses of the word "beledi". Strictly (according to Yousry Sharif) it's all beledi - but I supect an Egyptian style dancer would go for tarab rather than zills for a beledi progression - as opposed to a beledi taqsim which can be very bouncy and lively. But if it fits, go for it.

Now, what about the costume

Wait, Kashmir, don't leave!!

I thought Beledi Taqsim, beledi progression, tet beledi, and ashra beledi were all interchangeable names for the same thing!!

Now someone has to break down the differences for me!

(stretchy galabeya, of course!)

Confused as well - thought baladi taqsim and baladi progression were the same thing...

(And agree that you wouldn't play zills during the actual TAQSIM portion - don't think anyone questioned that.)

Hi gang! My, thank you for the compliment. :-) I'm not sure I'm the reigning queen, but i do enjoy playing cymbals with a beledi... the only reason i didn't do that on the dvd is that the producer, Neon, advised me that cymbals don't usually sound good when recorded live, that they'd have to be overdubbed, and with the variables of the live band and the seeming complexity of that, I thought it better to forgo it this time. I don't think my zills sound that crisp on my performance dvds, actually, certainly not as crisp as usual, and I guess that may be why. The joys of video!!

Hello, Ranya!

Thanks for your input. I thoroughly enjoy your youtube clips (Tahtil Shibbak, especially) and I've heard great things about your DVD. I have a copy in my Amazon cart -- I like to let things build up in there for a while before I place my orderl!

Thanks Lauren!

FYI, I have some bonus deals on my website still (Bellydance New York City - Ranya Renee & Company - Belly Dance Classes and Peformances) , so you can get access to teleconferences with me, and other juicy goodness, if you want to order directly. I'll have some more bonus content up there soon also, including music recommendations and archived teleconferences. I'm still getting caught up after the aftermath of the fire in my apartment building...and getting ready for the filming of the Classical Oriental DVD. One step at a time!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Wait, Kashmir, don't leave!!

I thought Beledi Taqsim, beledi progression, tet beledi, and ashra beledi were all interchangeable names for the same thing!!

Now someone has to break down the differences for me!

(stretchy galabeya, of course!)

"Beledi taqsim" can be used for a "beledi improvisation" - which includes the sort of thing on Shik Shak Shok - ie a jam with a well known song. (This was discussed with the musicians on the Farha Tour just last year so I'm reasonably sure of that bit)

I think ashra beledi is an example of a beledi progression and I thought tet beledi was part of the ashra beledi. But I could be wrong - my memory isn't what it was.

I thought I understood the structure of the baladi progression or baladi taqsim pretty well until getting Ranya's dvds on the same. She and accordianist Nabawy explain the parts of both the Awadi baladi (women's style) and the Tet Baladi (men's style), the maqams used in some of the standard melodies, the rhythms (which often don't include masmoudi sogheir or the one we call baladi). The teleconference is fabulous. In just the couple of months I've been working with her dvd I feel so much more at home with the baladi. And you will WORK with the dvd. She showcases three different baladis, demonstrates them with different feelings and then loops the various musical sections of the song to allow you to do improvisational drills to those specific sections of the music.

Oops, sorry to highjack the thread. I just had to rave a little.

Souzan

Originally Posted by Souzan

I thought I understood the structure of the baladi progression or baladi taqsim pretty well until getting Ranya's dvds on the same. She and accordianist Nabawy explain the parts of both the Awadi baladi (women's style) and the Tet Baladi (men's style), the maqams used in some of the standard melodies, the rhythms (which often don't include masmoudi sogheir or the one we call baladi). The teleconference is fabulous. In just the couple of months I've been working with her dvd I feel so much more at home with the baladi. And you will WORK with the dvd. She showcases three different baladis, demonstrates them with different feelings and then loops the various musical sections of the song to allow you to do improvisational drills to those specific sections of the music.

Oops, sorry to highjack the thread. I just had to rave a little.

Souzan

*passes out from geeky excitement*

OK, ordering direct from Ranya's site today!

Originally Posted by kashmir

"Beledi taqsim" can be used for a "beledi improvisation" - which includes the sort of thing on Shik Shak Shok - ie a jam with a well known song. (This was discussed with the musicians on the Farha Tour just last year so I'm reasonably sure of that bit)

I think ashra beledi is an example of a beledi progression and I thought tet beledi was part of the ashra beledi. But I could be wrong - my memory isn't what it was.

Thanks, Kashmir. I'm still not quite sure I understand, but hopefully Ranya and the musicians' explanations will make it clearer to me.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Thanks, Kashmir. I'm still not quite sure I understand, but hopefully Ranya and the musicians' explanations will make it clearer to me.

Be sure to sign up for a teleconference. The one I did with Ranya included several other Bhuzzers and ended up being 2 hours long. We just kept talking and talking. Most of our session was about the music. Ranya is very knowledgeable.

Souzan

Originally Posted by anthea

haha, Fifi is always "fixing something!" I love it! But using sagat in an actual beledi taqsim is different than putting them on for a regular song, know what I mean?

Yes, it is of course different, but...

Originally Posted by norma

Are you talking about the actual taqsim part where it starts out typically with an organ or accordian, or the part where it progesses into the actual beledi rhythm then into a drum solo? You'd play them for the 2nd part, not the 1st.

Originally Posted by zamora

are you talking "taxism" ?
melody with no rythem?
alternate, rl rl rl rl with an edge click

I'd agree with Norma, Cory and Ranya Renee, and that is what I meant (but didn't say clearly) with my first post.
I don't know that I would choose to play with the actual taqsim part, although I'm sure some people could pull it off. I'd go for it with the part with rhythm.

Boy it is fun hanging out with fellow beledi nerds!!

Asharah = the number 10 in Arabic

This is a slang term in musicians' language to indicate a round of beledi. So, yeah, the progression. There was more to that little definition though, when it was explained to me, and i'm going to check with Nabawy to remember what it is! :-) Oh, actually, I think it stands for 10 minutes-- like, "hey guys, let's play 10 minutes or so of beledi for this guy." Anyway, musicians and dancers in Egypt have a bunch of terms that they use as code so that the audience won't understand what they are saying about what they are going to play, and for how long, etc.

Thanks for the "props" on the teleconferences Souzan! I really enjoy giving them.

I'm going to schedule some more, including one with Nabawy the accordionist, so people should message me about what are preferred times/days of the week, if you are interested. :-D

oh, one more thing:

The presence of an intro taqsim (taqasim) is something typical to playing most Arabic pieces, whether improvised or composed. Maybe the taqsim is not always there on our recordings or before all live songs, but if musicians are playing live and they have to play a piece in a new maqam (different from the one that was just played), it's actually a matter of musical practicality for at least one musician to play a taqsim (and this applies to other types of music too, not only beledi). Dancers tend to think of it as "the slow part", but it has a melodic function, of setting the musicians' ears to the tuning of the new maqam. It helps musicians feel the "saltanah", get into the mood, so that they can play with deeper feeling and better accuracy. Of course, it is a mode of artistic expression too, but it's so integral to Arabic music--- i think dancers sometimes tend to focus on it being a more separate thing than it really is.

Shik shak shok is a good example, and other stuff on that CD too-- it has beledi flavor throughout, even though some of that beledi improvisation is kind of "on the fly" and mixed into the songs.

Originally Posted by ranyarenee

oh, one more thing:

The presence of an intro taqsim (taqasim) is something typical to playing most Arabic pieces, whether improvised or composed. Maybe the taqsim is not always there on our recordings or before all live songs, but if musicians are playing live and they have to play a piece in a new maqam (different from the one that was just played), it's actually a matter of musical practicality for at least one musician to play a taqsim (and this applies to other types of music too, not only beledi). Dancers tend to think of it as "the slow part", but it has a melodic function, of setting the musicians' ears to the tuning of the new maqam. It helps musicians feel the "saltanah", get into the mood, so that they can play with deeper feeling and better accuracy. Of course, it is a mode of artistic expression too, but it's so integral to Arabic music--- i think dancers sometimes tend to focus on it being a more separate thing than it really is.

Ah! That makes things like the 8 million taqsims in the Princess of Cairo routine make so much more sense! (well, I think there's four, not 8 million, but it feels like more )

I want to know how Elljay's dancer friend "hides" her zills and then puts them on mid-show.

This may be a silly question, but if you had a piece of music that had a nice beledi section in the middle and you wanted to play sagat, to it, how would you put them on? Would you dance to the majority of the song with the zills on but not play them, or have them off to the side and pick them up? I'm thinking about a stage performance as oppossed to a restaurant or informal party. I've done that before, just had them to the side or asked someone to hold them for me till I was ready. But what about on stage? Would it be too distracting to have them off and put them on?

Originally Posted by ranyarenee

... but i do enjoy playing cymbals with a beledi... the only reason i didn't do that on the dvd is that the producer, Neon, advised me that cymbals don't usually sound good when recorded live ...

What kind of cymbals do you play? One holed or 2, AmCab or Egyptian?

Originally Posted by Serpentine

What kind of cymbals do you play? One holed or 2, AmCab or Egyptian?

Hi there Yasmin! Off-topic, but THANK YOU for producing real Egyptian music on your CDs. It's so hard to find anything new that is produced in the old style without all that drum machine.

I use different cymbals depending on what kind of a show it is... if it's an "AmCab" show, where i have my veil on, held between fingers with cymbals on, until the *poof* beledi moment, then the two-holed kind are often easier to hold the veil with. If I'm doing an Egyptian beledi or Shama'dan or something like that, I use the one-holed kind, i have a vintage set or two from the 1970s. I think i read somewhere that you have good one-holed cymbals, yes?

rr