Thread: Waste of money!

I've recently been listening to some original recordings of the masters like Om Kalthoum and Abdel Halim. Among many others. The musicianship is SUPERB.

There are so many belly dance music CD's out there, but frankly I think most of them are a waste of money. If you are lucky you can find 1 decent song on the entire CD. I recently bought a CD where the clips on line sounded great. Well guess what? That's all that was good on the CD! The rest was crap and the rest of the tracks didn't use the same full orchestra.

I personally, like to buy the original CD and support the artists. But frankly, after buying so much crap, I can see why people prefer to buy an mp3 solo title verses the entire album.

But my real question is, why do musicians insist on doing such a weak version of a masterpiece and sell it? If you want to reproduce a song, at least match it in greatness. What's the point of reproducing a mediocre version?

Arrrghhhh!

What's the point of reproducing a mediocre version?

It's taste, though, isn't it, and the instruments to hand, and the context you're doing the cover in, and what's trendy at the time. Some people like to be soundalikes, some people like to push the envelope and create a new beautiful thing out of someone else's beautiful thing - value of result debatable - and others are wedding and 21st type cover artists who play a song just in a recognisable, easy listening format.

There are a lot of people in my generation for whom the Sid Vicious version of My Way is FAR more meaningful than Frank's.

Or, better: which is "best"?

Originally Posted by norma

There are so many belly dance music CD's out there, but frankly I think most of them are a waste of money. If you are lucky you can find 1 decent song on the entire CD.

I rarely ever buy music "for belly dance," and I don't usually listen to the records I do own. Honestly, I find most of it boring. I don't know how they do it, but some six-minute instrumental of an Umm Kalthoum song can feel like it drags on longer than an hour-long concert version where she's singing. That's pretty impressive.

You (Norma) developed your ear listening to live music. It's not surprising that some bland hunk of contemporary studio music doesn't grab you. The dynamics of live music are sanded off in a glossy production. It doesn't help anything that so much of the dance music market is dominated by HMC. They have a certain elevator-music quality to a lot of their recordings, and they hash and rehash the same tracks over and over again. I can usually tell when a record is produced BY dancers instead of just FOR dancers, because those tend to be a little meatier.

But my real question is, why do musicians insist on doing such a weak version of a masterpiece and sell it?

I think a better question is "Why do so many dancers not know better and keep buying this stuff, insuring that it'll never go away?" There are so many things going on. There's not much quality live music for comparison. (Oh, please. "Hey, gang, let's have live music at the hafla! I played clarinet in marching band, my husband can play a little doumbek, and I found some sheet music online" is not a real ensemble of trained ME musicians.) Per Alexandrian's recent thread, the market has shifted to prioritize percussion over melodic musicianship, and we've also discussed the deterioration of contemporary composership in the motherlands here--both complex problems among legitimate musicians. And a lot of the issue is we're so darn glad when a student picks any CD with a belly dancer on the cover over Western music that we consider it a win regardless.

One might think that the ability to buy by inexpensive single tracks instead of investing in a whole CD would encourage more exploration, but a lot of dancers seem to be content to plod along in the same old ruts. When dancers never hear what else is out there, people keep making the same lame, safe choices.

It's a lot cheaper and easier to produce electronic, studio-produced real music, than to hire a highly trained professional orchestra and make quality music...

To go astray a little bit (sorry!) - in Turkish music, it is rather normal to have the same song recorded time and time over. It is not like a cover-band approach, but rather, coming up with a different arrangement/interpretation and of course a fantastic solo improisation in the middle of the song is appreciated as the artist's unique expression - it reminds me a bit of Western classical music, where the serious collector has multiple, different recordings of the same piece for the sake of the particular conductor/soloist bringing out different aspects of the piece.

Originally Posted by Luna of Cairo

It's a lot cheaper and easier to produce electronic, studio-produced real music, than to hire a highly trained professional orchestra and make quality music...

That's what's bugging me. Producing music for the sake of selling CD's and no thought to the quality behind it. Heck, 1/2 the stuff labeled as belly dance music is practically undanceable!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I rarely ever buy music "for belly dance," and I don't usually listen to the records I do own. Honestly, I find most of it boring. I don't know how they do it, but some six-minute instrumental of an Umm Kalthoum song can feel like it drags on longer than an hour-long concert version where she's singing. That's pretty impressive.

You (Norma) developed your ear listening to live music. It's not surprising that some bland hunk of contemporary studio music doesn't grab you. The dynamics of live music are sanded off in a glossy production. It doesn't help anything that so much of the dance music market is dominated by HMC. They have a certain elevator-music quality to a lot of their recordings, and they hash and rehash the same tracks over and over again. I can usually tell when a record is produced BY dancers instead of just FOR dancers, because those tend to be a little meatier.



I think a better question is "Why do so many dancers not know better and keep buying this stuff, insuring that it'll never go away?" There are so many things going on. There's not much quality live music for comparison. (Oh, please. "Hey, gang, let's have live music at the hafla! I played clarinet in marching band, my husband can play a little doumbek, and I found some sheet music online" is not a real ensemble of trained ME musicians.) Per Alexandrian's recent thread, the market has shifted to prioritize percussion over melodic musicianship, and we've also discussed the deterioration of contemporary composership in the motherlands here--both complex problems among legitimate musicians. And a lot of the issue is we're so darn glad when a student picks any CD with a belly dancer on the cover over Western music that we consider it a win regardless.

One might think that the ability to buy by inexpensive single tracks instead of investing in a whole CD would encourage more exploration, but a lot of dancers seem to be content to plod along in the same old ruts. When dancers never hear what else is out there, people keep making the same lame, safe choices.

This is so true. I DO compare everything with the sound and feeling of a live band. In addition, my teacher who was Arabic taught to older original music that featured full orchestras with some of the top musicians of the day. So, I am extremely picky about what I like and will actually use.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I rarely ever buy music "for belly dance," and I don't usually listen to the records I do own. Honestly, I find most of it boring.

Okay, now I'm really curious. If you don't listen to the music you own, what do you listen to?

And perhaps you could share some of your sources rather than sneering at others for not having found them?

Originally Posted by norma

I
I personally, like to buy the original CD and support the artists. But frankly, after buying so much crap, I can see why people prefer to buy an mp3 solo title verses the entire album.

Maybe this isn't how you meant it, but this makes it sound like buying the individual titles doesn't support the artists! Of course it does, if you're buying from a reputable source.

For me, being able to download single tracks is the Most Amazing Thing the internet offers, for all the reasons stated in Norma's post above.

Originally Posted by tigerb

Okay, now I'm really curious. If you don't listen to the music you own, what do you listen to?

Sorry about the misunderstanding! I don't normally buy music produced specifically for dancers (i.e., stuff from HMC and BDSS with "belly dance" in the title). Usually if I do, it's because a teacher selected that record. I prefer the kinds of music that Arabs listen to--that's what I buy and that's what's in my MP3 player. Just from eyeballing my stash of physical CDs, about 1/6 is "dancer" music and the other 5/6 are mainstream releases by popular Arab singers. Rather than drag Norma's thread any further off topic, there should be numerous posts in the Bhuz archive where I've listed my favorite resources for following the Arabic music scene. You can probably find them by searching my username and "streaming library."

I agree that most of the CDs labeled 'belly dance music' are crap (with some exceptions, of course). They are to music as the Cairo Airport Special is to costuming, made to sell to tourists or export to the not-too-discerning-yet market of western bellydance students.

CDs produced by dancers (Fifi, Sahra Saeeda, Jalilah, Outi, Yasmin, etc - plus Fifi, Dina and Soheir all have CDs with their names on them, but I don't know if they produced them or not) have been great for me.

I've done well just searching emusic for songs with the world Raqs, Raks, or Raqset or Rakset in them... that usually leads me to CDs with magencies and a whole lot else! Then finding that artist leads me even deeper into the rabbit hole as I check out their other work.

Once I browsed songs with the word 'habibi' in the title and found all sorts of new-to-me artists! (a little more research might be necessary before performing to these, of course).

I've found fabulous Saidi music by searching for songs with 'mizmar' in the title, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

CDs produced by dancers (Fifi, Sahra Saeeda, Jalilah, Outi, Yasmin, etc - plus Fifi, Dina and Soheir all have CDs with their names on them, but I don't know if they produced them or not) have been great for me....

Please don't give up on all of us! I have a new one coming out in May - recorded by the Henkesh Brothers during the revolution 2011. 10 Turkish favorites - with and without finger cymbals. I think it's the best one yet.

Turkey / Egypt: Turkish Belly Dance Favorites by the Henkesh Brothers

I'm still working on the booklet and the publicity materials but the CD is being replicated as I write this.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

And perhaps you could share some of your sources rather than sneering at others for not having found them?

The sources are plentiful and available but one has to know what's out there.
As Tourbeau mentioned and many seem to agree, if dancers restrict themselves to buying "music for Belly Dance", it'll be quickly discovered that there's little of value there. There have been tens of thousands of original works produced in Egypt, let alone the rest of the Arab world, over the past hundred years. Of those, a thousand or so have been placed in the highly-significant to masterpiece levels. These important works have been continually reproduced since the 1930's. For example, there are alternate orchestral rearrangements of Mohammad Abdel Wahab compositions by various orchestras dating back seventy years.

Even if dancers restrict their choice to recordings made since say, the mid 1960's, Considering that audio quality is obviously important for a dance performance, virtually all of these great works are available as high quality recordings by various orchestras or smaller, highly talented, musical outfits. There's no shortage of great vocal talent either. There are plenty of excellent quality singers revisiting the classics as well as producing new original works. But in order to get a good handle on this music and know how to chart a course to finding and selecting what you like, one has to do a great deal of organized listening. There's a whole lot to study and comprehend and most of you did not have the benefit of growing up with the music. While that may be viewed by some as somewhat of a disadvantage, I happen to believe that it's actually an advantage.

There is youtube. If one starts with the twenty or so great Egyptian/Arab composers (or even the Essential Eight) and do an organized youtube and cross-referenced search, one should have an excellent handle on what's out there in less than five years, perhaps in as little as two. As many continue to find out on this forum, once you know what production or reproduction you want, finding out how to buy it is not going to be that difficult.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Maybe this isn't how you meant it, but this makes it sound like buying the individual titles doesn't support the artists! Of course it does, if you're buying from a reputable source.

For me, being able to download single tracks is the Most Amazing Thing the internet offers, for all the reasons stated in Norma's post above.

No, that's not how I meant it at all. I spend a lot of money on music. I mean I spend a lot! I prefer have the physical CD because I have had computer crashes etc. Plus I like being able to look at the CD cover to get more information. But I'm getting really tired of buying CD's and having one decent song if I'm lucky. Usually, I do have better luck with CD's produced by dancers but this particular thread was inspired by my recent purchase of several CD's that were by dancers and too me just fell flat.

I am becoming addicted to downloading mp3's. Even there at first, I would download the entire mps album because I had to have it all, LOL! But now? Forget it.

And another pet peeve is when I buy a CD for a particular song, and the online clip is good, etc. but then the song is RUINED for me when they fade off the ending instead of ending it properly.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Please don't give up on all of us!

Give up? Not at all… maybe you misread me? I said the dancer-produced CDs are the best, the ones to look for!

The sources are plentiful and available but one has to know what's out there.

Well, exactly. Unless one is in the mystical circle of Those Who Know, one has to work with what is readily available. Certainly it is 90000000 percent easier to get music suitable for belly dance where I live than once it was, though in my experience you will no longer find it in any music shop. But as I have mentioned here before, there are cross-border restrictions that mean if it's not on iTunes or, I think CD Baby, you cannot buy it in mp3 format in some countries - which a lot of us like to do, especially if we are just looking for one song - and most people I know are gravitating to CDs produced by dancers we know and trust. I had to buy a BDSS CD for a song the other day. UGH. Everything else on it is foul. On the other hand, I also bought Yasmina of Cairo's El Warda and am very pleased with my choice.

I'm sure the cognoscenti would turn up their noses at Jalilah's Raqs Sharqi series or Nourhan Sharif's CDs, but those ARE designed by and for dancers and while they're old now they're still pretty decent in my opinion. These things were hard for us to get and they are well used, but also old friends that we know inside and out, labelled correctly and in English. They are just easier. I would still recommend them to anybody.

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

I'm sure the cognoscenti would turn up their noses at Jalilah's Raqs Sharqi series or Nourhan Sharif's CDs, but those ARE designed by and for dancers and while they're old now they're still pretty decent in my opinion. These things were hard for us to get and they are well used, but also old friends that we know inside and out, labelled correctly and in English. They are just easier. I would still recommend them to anybody.

Really? I still like them... Maybe they're overplayed and I wouldn't compete in front of dancers with them, but I just played some of Nourhan Sharif's stuff as background music for a house party last night.

But seriously. It is important to have a starting point like that, some old stand-bys. It's great to be able to thoroughly explore and understand the music before one must perform to it, but some dancers are pushed (by themselves or others) into performing before they are Music Masters and they want something that's exciting but not too new, and certainly not something that's going to offend somebody.
It takes a lot of courage to trust in one's own opinion, to really be confident that a musical choice is appropriate -- especially if one hangs out in a community like Bhuz, where others will shred you for wearing glitter dot. Knowledge does a great deal of good, but ignorance is also bliss, and when people realize that they are stuck somewhere in the middle, "safe" music choices make it easier to sleep at night.

My approach to that was to trust my teachers and pay attention to things like Bhuz threads rather than to buy a bunch of cds with dancers on the cover and assume that they were great. [If I'd had more money, I'm sure that I would have made several poorer choices just on the chance of finding something.] But for people without those mentor resources... sometimes the dancer on the cover is the convincing factor. CD producers figured it out, and there you go, self-feeding cycle.

Originally Posted by norma

And another pet peeve is when I buy a CD for a particular song, and the online clip is good, etc. but then the song is RUINED for me when they fade off the ending instead of ending it properly.

I share that peeve, big time! The worst is when it's an otherwise exciting and engaging drum solo that just peters out at the end.