Thread: Musical style questions

I'm working on a 6-week series introducing non-folkloric musical genres in Middle-Eastern dance to fairly experienced dancers who are only vaguely aware of them, if at all.

The categories I'm using (for this limited intro) are:
1) Baladi/baladi progression
2) Pop music: Al Jeel vs. Shaabi
3) Compositions for dance: Majency/Oriental
4) Om Kalsoum
5) Golden Era composers/singers: Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Farid el Atrash, Abdel Halim Hafez, Abdul Halim Haifez
6) --- taqsim???? --

There are three areas where I have questions.

1) Do you consider the Magency & Oriental to be the very same thing? Or do you think of them as different -- and if so, how would you characterize them? I never really thought about it before, but I'm realizing there are songs I think of as 'oriental' that aren't magencies.

2) I'm considering using taqsim for my 6th category, only because it offers so much rich classroom potential to teach about instruments and invite the students to practice melting into the melody line, letting the notes travel up & down the body, etc. But I feel like I'm leaving out so much! Am i overlooking something major, in your opinion?

3) Here's my big quesiton. I am sure these students are going to want to know about the music they encounter a lot as beginners. Where do all those songs from CDs with the word 'bellydance' on the cover fit in? Emad Sayah, for instance, records a ridiculous number of songs specifically for (western) bellydancers, but they're not Orientals. Solace and Tony Anka and Paul Dinletir and Natacha Atlas and much of Hossam Ramzy's catalog? Is it 'fusion' and if so, what would you say it's fused with? Is this another category entirely, and if so what would you call it?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

3) Here's my big quesiton. I am sure these students are going to want to know about the music they encounter a lot as beginners. Where do all those songs from CDs with the word 'bellydance' on the cover fit in? Emad Sayah, for instance, records a ridiculous number of songs specifically for (western) bellydancers, but they're not Orientals. Solace and Tony Anka and Paul Dinletir and Natacha Atlas and much of Hossam Ramzy's catalog? Is it 'fusion' and if so, what would you say it's fused with? Is this another category entirely, and if so what would you call it?

In my raw, unfiltered opinion, I'd call that stuff "not appropriate for representing Middle Eastern dance." I don't necessarily call it fusion because it's not clearly fused with anything. Much like Suhaila's "bellydance" I see it as Western art (jazz dance or western music) inspired by Middle Eastern dance or music. It is "arabesque" or "Orientalism". I think it's fine for personal enjoyment, listening to, grooving to at home or perhaps using in class for warm-up (although there are so many better choices from the ME genre). Essentially, if I saw a show where someone used this music in their performance that was presented as "bellydance", I'd be disappointed and would see them as poorly trained, not professional, clueless, etc. I realize my opinion may be contraversial and poorly received by some but it is just that, my opinion.

Your series sounds wonderful and I applaud your dedication to teaching these concepts to your students, especially beginners. it is never too early for this vital part of our dance education. With MED, you cannot separate dance from music from culture. They are one.

Wow, I'd like to take the series! I think taxim is great, but also Saidi is fun, accessible and often danced to with cane or stick and there are all those wonderful Saidi costumes.

Don't really know the answer to your other questions. I'm not such a purist as Hala Jamal, though I respect her opinion.

Maybe you can cover both magency and oriental in one class?

You need a longer session!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

3) Here's my big quesiton. I am sure these students are going to want to know about the music they encounter a lot as beginners. Where do all those songs from CDs with the word 'bellydance' on the cover fit in? Emad Sayah, for instance, records a ridiculous number of songs specifically for (western) bellydancers, but they're not Orientals. Solace and Tony Anka and Paul Dinletir and Natacha Atlas and much of Hossam Ramzy's catalog? Is it 'fusion' and if so, what would you say it's fused with? Is this another category entirely, and if so what would you call it?

I refer to this as 'pop music for the Western bellydancer' when my students ask. Although, that said, I heard quite a bit of Hossam Ramsey in Turkey....

Not sure what you mean by "non-folkloric". Also, the list you've included below is composed exclusively of Egyptian music and I'm not sure if you intend to include other Middle Eastern genres.

I don't know if you seek to design your own system of classification or if you plan to rely on technical Egyptian music theory. If you’re looking to present the topic of Egyptian music (as the conduit for Egyptian dance) as it's taught to Egyptian musicians and dancers then all of the points in your list belong to the four modern (a couple more predate Sayed Darwish) Egyptian music genres; Classical, Pop (various periods), Baladi and its close sibling; Shaabi. If one is forced into assigning a musical work to a particular genre, one would do so based on the work's compositional technique not according to its composer, singer, era or presentational style. So, a Taqsim or a so called magency are not genres or even subsets of any. Rather, either would belong to one of the four genres based on compositional style. Similarly, classifying (if you have to) a 1960's Baligh Hamdi work sung by Abdel Halim would depend on the composition itself as well as the lyrics not on when it was written or its collaborative team. Of note, compositions often include aspects of more than one genre. This knowledge requires a thorough understanding of Egyptian music theory and I would wish you all the best in tackling it.

On the other hand, you could be seeking to design a system of classification that is based on your significant personal experience (and that of others) as a non-native artist. If you conclude that Dancers in the West would benefit from perceiving the music in a structurally different variant, I think that could make for an interesting product as well.

I'm not looking to classify (or reclassify) music, Alexandrian! My goodness. I'm just structuring a 6-week series of classes on musicality.

I realize a lot of the musical styles I mentioned are Egyptian (my training is primarily Egyptian-style and that's the bulk of what I teach) but I think all the forms I mentioned are well-known thorughout the Arab world, and Turkish dancers work with Taqsims and Oriental/Magencies as well (and have their own version of Al Jeel, according to the simple definition we'll be using for this class).

Thanks for the other responses, they're helping me solidify my own opinion. I don't feel quite as strongly as Hala Jamal about it being wholly unsuitable, but when I think of someone performing to most if it, I do think of student dancers at a hafla. So maybe trying to characterize it is like trying to characterize those little ditties they have you play when you're learning guitar. It's a learning tool for new dancers who are learning to string movements together into phrases. Some of it is useful for drilling, some of it is useful for students creating their first solos.

Even some of the Paul Dinletir and Tony Anka stuff, which is used by lots of professional dancers in the West, is like a bridge for Western audiences who may not be ready to sink into a lengthy Om Kalsoum piece but need a little flash and bang onstage.

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Even some of the Paul Dinletir and Tony Anka stuff, which is used by lots of professional dancers in the West, is like a bridge for Western audiences who may not be ready to sink into a lengthy Om Kalsoum piece but need a little flash and bang onstage.

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!

This is possibly splitting hairs or going off on a tangent that is not within the scope of what you're talking about in pop music forms, but...

What about the fusion-type music -- much of which I suspect people would fit in soundwise, accessibility-wise, etc., with the artists you list -- which is not only not produced by Western artists but is also not really being produced for Western audiences, either? (Or to qualify it, sometimes it's being made by and for people who are living in the West but culturally their heritage isn't Western)? Where does that fit in? I'm thinking about forms like raï or even bhangra -- they're fusion forms with diverse influences, and they're very "accessible" to Western ears, but they aren't Western pop with an Eastern flavor, and they aren't produced for Western audiences (or at least Western-heritage audiences, IYKWIM). I know neither of those is on the Turkish/Egyptian axis, so they might not fit into the scope, and bellydance to bhangra (for example) would truly be fusing cultural traditions. But even with somewhere like Egypt, there's also a lot of fusion of Western forms with traditional that's not Al Jeel (ME hiphop, say). Where do those things fit in on the spectrum? Someone doing chaabi-inflected bellydance to a raï song (which is something I've seen North African bellydancers do)...folkloric, fusion, or what?

It's not really pop music for the Western bellydancer, is it? Or is it? Does it depend on who's dancing to it and how they're dancing to it? Or who the musicians are?

(And I realize Al Jeel *is* one of those forms, really...but maybe you could umbrella that a bit: Al Jeel and similar pop forms, even if they aren't Egyptian/Turkish.)

Interesting questions, Tiziri. I would just call those whatever they are... Rai, Arabic hip hop, Bhangra fusion.

Week 2 will really be about dancing to pop music as a broad category (relative to the other styles) My note about mentioning Al Jeel and Shaabi was more to help me remember to discuss the fact that there is more than one kind of pop music in the Arab world and dancers really need to make sure their music is appropriate for the venue/audience and know what they're dancing to. I would fit Rai and Arabic hip hop into the 'pop music' category for sure.

But since I'll be devoting only one hour to the subject of pop music, which will include a bit of lecture, warm up time, dancing, Qs and As, and cool down time, I won't be getting into it that specifically. Maybe someday I'll do a 6 week series on Arabic pop music though....

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm working on a 6-week series introducing non-folkloric musical genres in Middle-Eastern dance to fairly experienced dancers who are only vaguely aware of them, if at all.

The categories I'm using (for this limited intro) are:
1) Baladi/baladi progression
2) Pop music: Al Jeel vs. Shaabi
3) Compositions for dance: Majency/Oriental
4) Om Kalsoum
5) Golden Era composers/singers: Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Farid el Atrash, Abdel Halim Hafez, Abdul Halim Haifez
6) --- taqsim???? --

There are three areas where I have questions.

1) Do you consider the Magency & Oriental to be the very same thing? Or do you think of them as different -- and if so, how would you characterize them? I never really thought about it before, but I'm realizing there are songs I think of as 'oriental' that aren't magencies.

I think of "Oriental" as being anything in your categories 3, 4, and 5.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

3) Here's my big quesiton. I am sure these students are going to want to know about the music they encounter a lot as beginners. Where do all those songs from CDs with the word 'bellydance' on the cover fit in? Emad Sayah, for instance, records a ridiculous number of songs specifically for (western) bellydancers, but they're not Orientals. Solace and Tony Anka and Paul Dinletir and Natacha Atlas and much of Hossam Ramzy's catalog? Is it 'fusion' and if so, what would you say it's fused with? Is this another category entirely, and if so what would you call it?

I think I'd say that a lot of music is marketed as "belly dance" that is unknown to the Middle Eastern general public. I'm not sure I'd use the general term "fusion", though. I think I'd just say, "This isn't something you'd hear on the radio in the Middle East. Much of it was composed in the West, intended for the Western ear. Many of these composers, such as Jeremiah Soto of Solace and Doug Adams of Light Rain, were inspired by the dancers in their lives, and that inspiration made its way into their music."

Originally Posted by Lauren_

1) Do you consider the Magency & Oriental to be the very same thing? Or do you think of them as different -- and if so, how would you characterize them? I never really thought about it before, but I'm realizing there are songs I think of as 'oriental' that aren't magencies.

I'm not sure it's possible to be a magency and not be oriental, but I'd agree it's possible to be oriental and not a magency.

3) Here's my big quesiton. I am sure these students are going to want to know about the music they encounter a lot as beginners. Where do all those songs from CDs with the word 'bellydance' on the cover fit in?

It's music specific for dancers, sometimes inspired by what dancers over there use, and other times, aimed directly at the foreign student market.

Emad Sayah, for instance, records a ridiculous number of songs specifically for (western) bellydancers, but they're not Orientals. Solace and Tony Anka and Paul Dinletir and Natacha Atlas and much of Hossam Ramzy's catalog?

I understand the tendency to lump these not-quite-authentic artists into a single category, but I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to do so. For example, I don't believe Natacha Atlas is intentionally aiming for the dance market in the same way that Tony Anka is. (I think she's a world-music artist who's doing her multiculti thing, just like Loreena McKennitt, and if dancers like it, that's icing on her cake.) OTOH, what's the difference between Western music that's been Middle-Eastern-ized (Paul Dinletir) and Middle Eastern music that's been Westernized (Hossam Ramzy)? Maybe we don't need to split those hairs.

Essentially this music acts as training wheels for students. Because it uses Western elements (in the form of Western instruments, song structure, or production style), it's often more accessible than the "real thing." Some of it is better than others. I'm not sure there's really anything wrong with it in moderation, especially early in one's education, but if a student doesn't ever explore beyond it, it is limiting.

[oh noes, it's gonna be long...]

BTW, I find the term "al jeel" seems increasingly useless. For one thing, if it's supposed to represent the youth music of Egypt, why isn't it "al-geel" with the Egyptian pronunciation of jeem? Aside from that, the standard definition of "al jeel" is the music of guys like Amro Diab, Hisham Abbas, Moustafa Amar, Mohammed Fouad, etc. I hate to say it, but the "generation" those guys represent today is "the average Egyptian's parents." These singers are middle-aged men now, and while they are still capable of making records that young people might want to buy, there's a whole generation of younger singers competing with them, some of whom are already in their mid-thirties themselves. Since the revolution, a vibrant indie scene is thriving, too, and thanks to globalization, young Egyptians may also be listening to internationally popular, non-Egyptian music like Beyonce, Drake, and Bruno Mars.

If you want to make a distinction between commercial popular music and neotraditional urban folk music, or if you want to talk about how that particular group of musicians changed the course of popular music about two decades ago, okay, but I can honestly say for all the time I spend trawling Arabic music sites, I never see the term "al jeel." Music that isn't specifically sha'abi is just music, sometimes sha'abi is just music, and sometimes sha'abi speaks to young people. And as Tiziri points out, there's also a segment of young musicians who are expressing themselves and speaking to their generation through hip hop and rap, indigenous functions of sha'abi through a hybridized foreign vector.

Originally Posted by Alexandrian

On the other hand, you could be seeking to design a system of classification that is based on your significant personal experience (and that of others) as a non-native artist.

I don't think it is an exaggeration to say the average dance student isn't primed to understand ME music at the level you are describing as sensible in terms of how Middle Easterners think of music. (I don't know who is in Lauren's particular class, but "fairly experienced" and "vaguely aware" are terms that frequently go together when talking about students.) When I think back to the initial impressions I was given about music in my early classes, here were the categories I assumed:

- Funky ol' nightclub music (Eddie Kochak, George Abdo)
- Contemporary domestic music for dancers (Brothers of the Baladi, Solace, Light Rain, Oasis)
- "Classical" music (Hossam Ramzy's "Tribute to..." albums; this category now would include the HMC output by groups like Cairo Orchestra and Mohamed Ali Ensemble)
- "Foreign" music that's safe to use because a better dancer (like a workshop teacher) said so (this category has since expanded to include Miles' empire of BDSS products)
- Musicians you heard other people talk about but you never met anyone who actually listened to (Umm Kalthoum, Abdel Halim, etc.)

[Last part...]

Once I got into the larger dance community, I realized those last three categories were somewhat distorted. At the time, I was in a backwater with little ME presence in town and substantial educational inbreeding among the dancers. I even remember asking my teacher whether the music she used in class was what Arabs actually listened to. Fortunately, the Internet was starting to take off, and you could get to some of this mysterious "real" music with a 9.6K modem and a Real Player.

I wish I could say that things are different now, but I'm not sure much has improved from the middle down. For dancers who are motivated, it's possible to self-teach a lot from the resources available, but many students simply don't care very much. They're interested enough if you hand it to them, but it's not something they have a burning desire to learn. The people on Bhuz are only a fraction of the larger dance community, and of them, only a fraction are active in conversations about music. The same song titles are suggested over and over again in the threads. Song ID requests almost always refer to what some other dancer used. There's little awareness of the distinction between "new" and "new to me." Many students show up for their hour of dance class a week, and never listen to or buy anything but the music used by the teacher. In other words, yes, Lauren's classifications, as artificially imposed as they may or may not seem, are still a quantum leap forward.

OT...Alexandrian, can you help out here? Zaffa with shamadan music? Something about arriving? Even if you don't know it, if you can make a better stab at the lyrics, I'll run another search. I can't tell if I'm hearing what's there or not.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Music that isn't specifically sha'abi is just music, sometimes sha'abi is just music, and sometimes sha'abi speaks to young people.

I love your whole post(s), but right here...that's such a good point. Sha'abi's (hard for me to find the right phrase here) sociocultural place -- who listens to it and where -- is different from place to place. Also: "sha'abi" is such a broad brush, and what sha'abi is varies so widely from country to country. Egyptian sha'abi isn't much at all like Moroccan chaabi...and then there's Algerian chaabi, which wears its Andalusian roots on its sleeve (alongside the Arabo-Amazigh ones) and is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Wow, I'm no help at all with this, just muddling things. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Interesting questions, Tiziri. I would just call those whatever they are... Rai, Arabic hip hop, Bhangra fusion.

Week 2 will really be about dancing to pop music as a broad category (relative to the other styles) My note about mentioning Al Jeel and Shaabi was more to help me remember to discuss the fact that there is more than one kind of pop music in the Arab world and dancers really need to make sure their music is appropriate for the venue/audience and know what they're dancing to. I would fit Rai and Arabic hip hop into the 'pop music' category for sure.

But since I'll be devoting only one hour to the subject of pop music, which will include a bit of lecture, warm up time, dancing, Qs and As, and cool down time, I won't be getting into it that specifically. Maybe someday I'll do a 6 week series on Arabic pop music though....

Yeah, I would think it would going to have to be something of an overview/survey, without all the geekery...or each type of music would wind up being a 6-week course in itself. (I'm just a big nerd about these things; sorry for all the tangent).

Thinking more about the tangent on the current music scene, I want to quickly toss this link onto the table Makshoof Music - Uncovering the Middle East's music talent by triplew.me. The site may be a little out of date, but many of the artists are still currently active.

It's easy to fall into the attitude that the Middle East is the land that time forgot, as if they've been standing still, waiting for us to find them, when that's not the case. I don't think in a six-week course it would make sense to spend much time talking about where indie musicians over there now are taking their music, especially when general knowledge of ME music is starving for attention, but as interested students ourselves, it's good to have some awareness of it. Many of the artists in the Makshoof database are working in Western styles, on Western instruments, in English--and they think they are making authentic, sincere music that expresses who they are and speaks to their countrymen. These are records that wouldn't be out of place on an American college radio station.

The world's probably not going to get smaller and more provincial, so where does this music fit into our paradigm? We can personally prefer the more traditional styles, we can emphasize the importance of respecting and preserving the more traditional styles through our performances and classes, but how much are we allowed to ignore that this is happening?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Thinking more about the tangent on the current music scene, I want to quickly toss this link onto the table Makshoof Music - Uncovering the Middle East's music talent by triplew.me. The site may be a little out of date, but many of the artists are still currently active.

It's easy to fall into the attitude that the Middle East is the land that time forgot, as if they've been standing still, waiting for us to find them, when that's not the case. I don't think in a six-week course it would make sense to spend much time talking about where indie musicians over there now are taking their music, especially when general knowledge of ME music is starving for attention, but as interested students ourselves, it's good to have some awareness of it. Many of the artists in the Makshoof database are working in Western styles, on Western instruments, in English--and they think they are making authentic, sincere music that expresses who they are and speaks to their countrymen. These are records that wouldn't be out of place on an American college radio station.

The world's probably not going to get smaller and more provincial, so where does this music fit into our paradigm? We can personally prefer the more traditional styles, we can emphasize the importance of respecting and preserving the more traditional styles through our performances and classes, but how much are we allowed to ignore that this is happening?

My question would be, are these indie musicians creating music for raqs sharki? Or is it shaabi or something else? Are there Westernized dance styles coming up to go along with this new music?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Thinking more about the tangent on the current music scene, I want to quickly toss this link onto the table Makshoof Music - Uncovering the Middle East's music talent by triplew.me. The site may be a little out of date, but many of the artists are still currently active.

It's easy to fall into the attitude that the Middle East is the land that time forgot, as if they've been standing still, waiting for us to find them, when that's not the case. I don't think in a six-week course it would make sense to spend much time talking about where indie musicians over there now are taking their music, especially when general knowledge of ME music is starving for attention, but as interested students ourselves, it's good to have some awareness of it. Many of the artists in the Makshoof database are working in Western styles, on Western instruments, in English--and they think they are making authentic, sincere music that expresses who they are and speaks to their countrymen. These are records that wouldn't be out of place on an American college radio station.

The world's probably not going to get smaller and more provincial, so where does this music fit into our paradigm? We can personally prefer the more traditional styles, we can emphasize the importance of respecting and preserving the more traditional styles through our performances and classes, but how much are we allowed to ignore that this is happening?

I totally agree. One of my students was looking for a fusion (heavy metal) piece and when I mentioned that maybe she should look into the Arabic heavy metal scene, my advanced students laughed out loud. I said 'why is that funny?' and they said 'oh you know, an arabic heavy metal band. That's funny.'

It took me a minute to realize why they thought that was funny. My students persist in thinking the Arab world is stuck in the 12th century.

So it hasn't done much good, but I *love* to show them Arab music videos. They're continuously surprised to see streets with buildings and cars, people in jeans and t-shirts, and women not wearing hijab. I swear, most Americans think the whole Arab world is camels, tents, pyramids. (American movies don't help much, although Dubai has turned up in a couple of films, looking pretty spiffy, lately).

Originally Posted by dunyah

My question would be, are these indie musicians creating music for raqs sharki?

I don't think they are making music specifically for dancers, but some of it can be danced to, although not necessarily in raqs sharqi ways. Certainly some of it would work for interpretive veil or modern tribal. It's a huge range of styles.

Or is it shaabi or something else?

Sometimes the music occupies the same artistic purpose as sha'abi in terms of conveying ideas in a populist way, and other times, it's just meant to be listened to and enjoyed without overthinking the stylistic choices. Then again, a lot of the music we think of as "dance music" didn't start out that way. I don't believe Umm Kalthoum and her collaborators were charting their artistic course with dancers in mind. They said what they wanted to say how they wanted to say it, and the dance grew onto it.

Are there Westernized dance styles coming up to go along with this new music?

We bring an accent to what we do, so presumably they're fusing in their native styles when they dance Western styles. Hip hop and breakdancing seem to be infiltrating dabke, so there's probably cross-pollination going on everywhere. It's hard to tell from YouTube, though. There are clips of some of these acts performing live, but what are we seeing as the crowd is bopping around? Are those natives? Foreign university students? People of mixed ethnicities? All of the above?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I totally agree. One of my students was looking for a fusion (heavy metal) piece and when I mentioned that maybe she should look into the Arabic heavy metal scene, my advanced students laughed out loud. I said 'why is that funny?' and they said 'oh you know, an arabic heavy metal band. That's funny.'

It took me a minute to realize why they thought that was funny. My students persist in thinking the Arab world is stuck in the 12th century.

So it hasn't done much good, but I *love* to show them Arab music videos. They're continuously surprised to see streets with buildings and cars, people in jeans and t-shirts, and women not wearing hijab. I swear, most Americans think the whole Arab world is camels, tents, pyramids. (American movies don't help much, although Dubai has turned up in a couple of films, looking pretty spiffy, lately).

This is depressing, and yet I nod my head. I once helped a friend track down some Moroccan death metal; some acquaintances who heard it were terribly disappointed that it sounded pretty much just like other death metal (the fact that it was sung in another language made little difference -- it's death metal, after all. Lyrical intelligibility isn't the point.) I don't know what exactly they expected it to sound like.

Coincidentally, Hani uploaded this to his blog last night,,,for those occasions when you want to imagine Abdel Halim Hafez and Ronnie James Dio are somewhere on the other side of this mortal plane playing gigs together?

I think each of these could be a 6 week topic on their own and barely get to the music geekery side of things! (while Toubeau is analyzing modern trends, I'm working my way through George Sawa's book on music practices of the AbBasid era, 750-932 ad)
Personally I'm all for nostalgia and the classical oriental style I generally prefer to perform and teach is naturally going to rely on older music styles (of both historic and modern composition)

For a survey class, you might want to give a listen to some of what Afropop worldwide has produced for radio. They have a few archived shows specifically on Egyptian music, but I'm not thinking of presenting their shows per se, more like how I enjoy taking beginning classes with other teachers to pick up ideas for my own classes (new ways to describe a move for example) I wouldn't take their work wholesale, but they do a good job condensing complex material into one hour digestible segments in a way which could help inspire.

ETA- I'm also a huge fan of Sinatra and am working on pulling together an Andrew Sisters tribute band for fun. Looked up to Lena Horne most of my life. Sure we need to keep up an awareness of what is going on now, but the classics still have relevance!

Originally Posted by Lara L

I think each of these could be a 6 week topic on their own and barely get to the music geekery side of things! (while Toubeau is analyzing modern trends, I'm working my way through George Sawa's book on music practices of the AbBasid era, 750-932 ad)
Personally I'm all for nostalgia and the classical oriental style I generally prefer to perform and teach is naturally going to rely on older music styles (of both historic and modern composition)

I'm certainly not advocating any sort of abandonment of the older music. With the exception of the fusionists, the older music is more suitable for what we're trying to accomplish. My concern isn't that everybody needs to be following the latest stuff, but rather that these cultures are evolving, and we may reach a day where the music we want to dance to is marginalized and forgotten in its homelands if nothing happens to reverse the trend. Too many dancers are already living in a time-delayed world where they have no grasp of the idea that a record that came out ten years ago isn't still "new." How can we be proactive in fighting the threat of losing traditional music--by making an effort to support its production now--if we're not doing any monitoring of the current situation and don't understand how much danger it is in? Realistically, the fact that we care from the other side of the world is worth about as much as the Whos in Whoville yelling, "We are here!", but at least we can try to not get caught off guard like we did when the US club scene disintegrated.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm certainly not advocating any sort of abandonment of the older music.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were! I really appreciate the time you put into not only following the current scene(s) but also into sharing them with us! We need both! I'm currently so wrapped up in learning as much as I can about classical and traditional styles, I have limited resources for pursuing everything I'd like to. That's part of what is so valuable in having a community which can both challenge and inform us. I certainly don't want to paint you into a box just because you've been more vocal about one particular interest you share with us!

Even when studying traditional forms (be it dance, music, painting, writing etc) we are modern artists as well as modern consumers. Ignoring either the roots or the current branches and shoots would be a mistake, but we will all naturally find ourselves more or less engrossed at different points in the continuum.

Tourbeau: I have to admit I *like* that song, even if the performance is kind of shambolic and loose (kinda adds to its charm.)

Which is leading me up to the confession that I often get more excited about what's being done with the music today. Don't get me wrong; I love the old standards and classical forms. I'm more than a bit of a music nerd and my tastes are very diverse. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit to often having more personal enthusiasm for the new stuff and what could be done with it as dance music.