Thread: Class in Egyptian music

There's an Egyptian guy who goes to my school and he and I often talk about music. Yesterday I was listening to the BDSSV album and I asked him what the song "El Hantour" was about. He listened to it and said "Oh my god, I cannot believe you are listening to this! Where did you find this? I do not approve." He said it quasi-jokingly, but still! He'd told me before that Egyptian music has a lot of stratification in terms of class and that his mother wouldn't like him listening to certain stuff. He said he listens to Hakim as a guilty pleasure b/c his mother would probably roll her eyes. Anybody else had experience with this or thoughts on the subject?
I really had no idea that just listening to a song could lower your class level...c::

Don't you think western music is the same?
Take classical music vs. popular music as a whole. Some people think of jazz and classical as being more "classy" - that's why you hear them in college admissions offices, fancy restaurants and stores. Not that hip hop (which is probably our equivalent to Hakim) is "low-class", but it's more like the popular "hip" music that maybe the parents don't want their kids to listen to. Like, I'm sure my mom would roll her eyes if she heard me listening to Eminem.

Or Punk, which was all about fighting against society and class, and you were supposed to look like your clothes were ripped and stuff. Isn't that a class thing too?

I agree with Nepenthe.

But what is El Hantour about?
I love that song

That's an interesting angle, but I have to confess that I have little knowledge of the specific genres in Egyptian/middle eastern music and their class implications. I've heard of shaabi and rai and that there are many folk styles, but I never really thought of some of them as "beneath" someone of a certain stature. I mean, a bunch of people on here like Saad's stuff and my friend said his music was "disgusting."

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I agree with Nepenthe.

But what is El Hantour about?
I love that song

He said "el hantour" means a cart, like one a horse pulls. The "gidigi gidigi" is like the clip-clop sound that horses hooves make and the singer is telling the horse to pull the cart. I didn't get much more than that cuz he decided the music was awful.

Yasmin has thoughtfully posted the lyrics on her website:

Lyrics - al-Hantour

Thank you! The lyrics are great- the annotation is awesome!

I guess what I couldn't articulate before is that I'm just asking for more info about specifics about class and music. We dance to many different genres all the time and I know to worry about costuming and movement appropriateness for certain rhythms, but I'm wondering if potential arabic clientel would be similarly turned off by my taste in music. Is some music just too "earthy" for some audiences and should be avoided? Not that I've ever had an arabic client, but do we perpetuate the arab notion of "bellydancers aren't good women" by dancing to "low class" music?

I don't think it's a question of some music being too earthy for some audiences.

Egypt has a very strong awareness of social class. I don't know whether it's because of the colonial occupation by Britain, or whether it was inherent to their society before that, but regardless of how it started, it's there too. I have really been amazed by the deference that Egyptians have shown toward me when they discovered that I work in the computer industry - as soon as that fact have come out, they gone from treating me with the courtesy they would offer to a stranger to a much warmer, more "honored" attitude.

The classical favorites (Mohammed Abdel Wahab, Oum Kalthoum, Abdel Halim Hafez) are sort of the music for intellectual rich people, just as for us the same would be said of Western ballet, symphony, and opera. Shaabi, in comparison, is the music of the blue-collar class, the music of people who probably get dirt under their fingernails in their jobs.

The class of Egyptian who would have enough money to learn to speak English fluently and live in the U.S. is the class of Egyptian who would feel that a blue-collar lifestyle is beneath them. Therefore, shaabi, the music of that social class, is beneath them.

Of course, culture and class issues are complex. You'll find people of any social class who like music of another class in both Egyptian society and our society. It's not cut and dried.

An interesting movie that really shows you the idea of class struggle in Egypt is Tamra Henna. You can buy it with English subtitles at either enter.html or Arabic DVD . It stars Naima Akef, a fabulous dancer, and she has 3 dance scenes in the movie.

Saad - my Arabic teacher was horrified that I was listening to Saad as well.

Shira - for real? with the computer industry? neat. :-) at least we get some respect somewhere in the world. So I guess it's a good thing I learned how to say "ana mohandisah" (I think that's "I'm an engineer", which is as close as I can figure out to say "I'm a software developer.")

OKay I just read the lyrics for el hantour and who thinks that what he's really saying is that he likes how SHE sways and he'd like to ride HER back & forth? I could see why your friend said it was dirty!

Well, I know a handful of Egyptians that love L-O-V-E El Hantour, but they also love dancing and the local belly dancers. (Where's Lili...she'll know who I'm talking about!) I think if you're dancing for an Arab audience that likes dancers, then they will either like you or not (depending on them). If you are dancing to an audience that already has a strong opinion about dancers, then I don't think your choice of music is going to change their mind. This is my opinion about western dancers...I don't know what musical choices in regards to her audience an Egyptian dancer would have to make...

And interesting you brought that up, Shira. I have had similar experiences when people find out I am studying to be a school teacher. I kinda get the "good girl with honorable profession" vibe. Actually, as I was leaving a gig one night a guy (whom I've known for a while, yet hardly speaks any English) told me something along the lines of, "I like you and your dancing, but let this go! Finish school and get a family and forget about all this dancing!" Just thought it was interesting.

...anyhow, back to topic!!

Originally Posted by tabitha

I think if you're dancing for an Arab audience that likes dancers, then they will either like you or not (depending on them). If you are dancing to an audience that already has a strong opinion about dancers, then I don't think your choice of music is going to change their mind.

I completely agree!

Being in Egypt alot as its just 1 hour flight from my home (Athens Greece) its always amazing to see the class difference. And sad...
Sha'aby music is considered by the educated ones, and the "higher" cheap, with no art in it.
Thats why the 95% of Egypt that are considered "low class" just adore Hakim. As he came from a very rich family and he choose to sing Sha'aby when he could sing other things (or not sing at all for his "higher class").
Its really sad cause its such the difference that make people "invisible" in a way. And these "classes" dont mix with each other.
If you speak with people from both places about dance, you can see they have different dance idols.
The "upper one" adore Naima Akef, Samia Gamal, Taheya Carioka and Nagwua Fuad, while for the "lower one" Fifi Abdou is the Godess. For both Dina is considered... S... and the teachers/dancers that we from the west dance world adore ... well they just dont know even their names.
Mahmoud Reda and Farida Fahmy are precious from all, and when i tell them that i'm student of them they always wonder if they are still alive !!!

Maria Aya

This isn't just Egypt...I think it's probably safe to say that most Arab cultures are socially stratified and extremely classist, and certainly what they view as good entertainment and art will vary among their perceived social classes. Just as a side note, I think one of the reasons Um Kulthum has such enduring popularity for ALL Arabs is that she was able to transcend the issue of class.

I know this thread started out talking about sha'abi music, but there's a natural segue here from Arabs' perception of music to their perception of entertainers, and specifically, dancers. It's been a while since I read "A Trade Like Any Other," but doesn't the author notice that it's the MIDDLE class that is the LEAST comfortable with dancers? The working class Egyptians perceive dancers as just "earning a living;" the rich, upper class folks are not offended by dancers so much as dismissive of them (i.e. dancers are low class, so naturally they are going to act in a low-class way, so whatever). The middle class seem to take the most umbrage at dancers, maybe because they are perched precariously between the low class and the high class, and are trying to propel themselves upwards by separating themselves from all things "low."

Just some random thoughts.

Nisaa

I just got my Fifi workshop videos and love her teaching and dancing to El Hantour. The horse steps, the swaying, the slapping. Soooo cute. Love it!

Souzan

Originally Posted by Souzan

I just got my Fifi workshop videos and love her teaching and dancing to El Hantour. The horse steps, the swaying, the slapping. Soooo cute. Love it!

Souzan

And kissing her hand!! I love that part...

Originally Posted by Souzan

I just got my Fifi workshop videos and love her teaching and dancing to El Hantour. The horse steps, the swaying, the slapping. Soooo cute. Love it!

Souzan

I'm curious- where can you find/purchase this? Is it available to non-workshop attendees? I've really enjoyed Fifi, what little I have seen of her.

Originally Posted by je_ateek

I'm curious- where can you find/purchase this? Is it available to non-workshop attendees? I've really enjoyed Fifi, what little I have seen of her.

Available to one and all!

Fifi 2007