Thread: Cairo tips, tricks, and traps

I talked to an Egyptian friend about cabaret wear, and he said something that made me crack up:

"The women wear something open."

I'm guessing by "open", he meant revealing.....l;,

Originally Posted by kamilia

I talked to an Egyptian friend about cabaret wear, and he said something that made me crack up:

"The women wear something open."

I'm guessing by "open", he meant revealing.....l;,

"something open" I love it! That's probably what he meant. Just remember that if you wear revealing clothes, be sure to have a wrap or shawl or long duster to cover the outfit while you're on your way to the night club. Once inside you can take off the coverup and look glamorous.

A shawl or an abaya...

Originally Posted by kamilia

I talked to an Egyptian friend about cabaret wear, and he said something that made me crack up:

"The women wear something open."

I'm guessing by "open", he meant revealing.....l;,

"Something open". <giggle>

It's okay to have your neckline a little lower, and a dress that's more form-fitting. It's also okay to have some sparkly sequins or rhinestones. I'd still suggest the dress be ankle length, with sleeves that come to about elbow length. And I agree with Leyla, bring some sort of outer garment for traveling between your hotel and the club.

I personally haven't packed special nightclub wear because I haven't wanted to have the weight and space consumed in my luggage by yet another garment - I just wore the same loose-fitting cotton stuff I wore during the day.

Originally Posted by kamilia

I talked to an Egyptian friend about cabaret wear, and he said something that made me crack up:

"The women wear something open."

I'm guessing by "open", he meant revealing.....l;,

ROFL..l;, ..l;, ..l;,

Originally Posted by *Shira*

"Something open". <giggle>

It's okay to have your neckline a little lower, and a dress that's more form-fitting. It's also okay to have some sparkly sequins or rhinestones. I'd still suggest the dress be ankle length, with sleeves that come to about elbow length. And I agree with Leyla, bring some sort of outer garment for traveling between your hotel and the club.

I personally haven't packed special nightclub wear because I haven't wanted to have the weight and space consumed in my luggage by yet another garment - I just wore the same loose-fitting cotton stuff I wore during the day.

What's the point of being more conservative in a cabaret? You're already a woman out in a cabaret (gasp!); there is no hope of redemption.

I was reading all the previous posts on groping in Egypt: if a man gropes you, I think you should fight back. People should come to your aid because groping is not allowed in their culture. I think a good phrase to know would be, "Stop that man/boy! He just pinched me bum/groped my breasts/etc."

Do you think a woman would face assault charges for fighting back?

Originally Posted by kamilia

What's the point of being more conservative in a cabaret? You're already a woman out in a cabaret (gasp!); there is no hope of redemption.

I was reading all the previous posts on groping in Egypt: if a man gropes you, I think you should fight back. People should come to your aid because groping is not allowed in their culture. I think a good phrase to know would be, "Stop that man/boy! He just pinched me bum/groped my breasts/etc."

Do you think a woman would face assault charges for fighting back?

When I was a student at AUC (American University/Cairo), the orientation went into some detail when it came to groping and sexual harrassment. Their advice was *not* to try to fight back physically if groped, because the students who did that generally ended up being punched -- yikes!!

My personal choice, and I've only had to use it on the mixed car on the metro, is to glare at the perpetrator and say "3iib 3alaik!" This is a rather strong "Shame on you!"

Maybe get others to fight back for you? Maybe?? ,f::

I should have remembered that I have had bad fights with men from there and similar parts of the world. I must have gotten angry reading about all this gropage...grrrr... I can't believe that to hold your own you have to take what you learned from a Marine ex-boyfriend and your little sister's judo expertise.

I remember a story from an Egyptian friend: a group of boys was being unruly outside an apartment building, so a woman came out to tell them to shut the hell up. One of the young men broke a bottle over her head. Ouch.

However, let us all remember that *******s exist everywhere.

During my last Cairo stint i was walking by myself during daytime along Tahrir Square.The sidewalks,as usual,were full of passersby too,when all of a sudden i raised my glance(wearing sunglasses!)and a young guy beside me happened to stare at me at the same nanosecond.Well,gotta tell you that he started to follow me into several stores and a food stalls i got into for around 20 minutes.When we went outside to the sidewalk again and making sure he continued following me i suddenly halt my walk and yelled loudly so that all the others around could hear me:HEYYYYY,ARE YOU FOLLOWING MEEEE???WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME,DUDE??????????????.Alll the other Egyptians placed eyes on him and frowned.He briskly continued his walk ahead and without staring at me anymore and responded in a very low tone a meager:"no".

..l;,

Originally Posted by Sashy

During my last Cairo stint i was walking by myself during daytime along Tahrir Square.The sidewalks,as usual,were full of passersby too,when all of a sudden i raised my glance(wearing sunglasses!)and a young guy beside me happened to stare at me at the same nanosecond.Well,gotta tell you that he started to follow me into several stores and a food stalls i got into for around 20 minutes.When we went outside to the sidewalk again and making sure he continued following me i suddenly halt my walk and yelled loudly so that all the others around could hear me:HEYYYYY,ARE YOU FOLLOWING MEEEE???WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME,DUDE??????????????.Alll the other Egyptians placed eyes on him and frowned.He briskly continued his walk ahead and without staring at me anymore and responded in a very low tone a meager:"no".

..l;,

haha. Sashy! You go, girl!

That's great, Sashy!!!

I'm rather surprised by all the groping stories that were posted on this thread. Out of my 6 visits to Egypt, each about 2 weeks in length, only one shop keeper touched me inappropriately on one occasion.

Some people have pooh-poohed my decision to cover my hair completely and wear baggy long dresses, but maybe that helps keep the icky gropers at bay. I don't know, but I do find the stories on this thread surprising because that has not been my experience.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'm rather surprised by all the groping stories that were posted on this thread. Out of my 6 visits to Egypt, each about 2 weeks in length, only one shop keeper touched me inappropriately on one occasion.

Some people have pooh-poohed my decision to cover my hair completely and wear baggy long dresses, but maybe that helps keep the icky gropers at bay. I don't know, but I do find the stories on this thread surprising because that has not been my experience.

I always dress modestly while walking around in Egypt(loose and long to my knees tunic over slacks or jeans),but don't cover my short hair.

I just figure there's not much to be done, except not wear shorts and a tube top.

I have an Egyptian Muslim friend who covers her hair and dresses modestly (not that I've seen anyone who covers but dresses like a skank, but anyway...) The last time she went she was VERY pregnant. Guys still harassed her! What gives? Maybe she was alone, but what kind of imbecile harasses a covered pregnant woman?

Personally, I don't support the covering of the hair in a country where religious minorities who don't support covering are regularly injured and killed, but I think it is very prudent to dress modestly :) It got me safely back from Greece (when I wasn't harassing the men myself...), Turkey, Morocco, Portugal and Spain. Despite differences in religion, countries share a machista culture. It's very wise to just take some preventive action and not have to worry about getting leered at.

Dress modestly and the men will lose interest and play with each other ..l;,

Originally Posted by kamilia

I just figure there's not much to be done, except not wear shorts and a tube top.

I have an Egyptian Muslim friend who covers her hair and dresses modestly (not that I've seen anyone who covers but dresses like a skank, but anyway...) The last time she went she was VERY pregnant. Guys still harassed her! What gives? Maybe she was alone, but what kind of imbecile harasses a covered pregnant woman?

Personally, I don't support the covering of the hair in a country where religious minorities who don't support covering are regularly injured and killed, but I think it is very prudent to dress modestly :) It got me safely back from Greece (when I wasn't harassing the men myself...), Turkey, Morocco, Portugal and Spain. Despite differences in religion, countries share a machista culture. It's very wise to just take some preventive action and not have to worry about getting leered at.

Dress modestly and the men will lose interest and play with each other ..l;,

As a very frequent Spain visitor(even plan to retire there)i need to tell you that Spain is a very,very liberal country,and one of the world leaders in human rights laws at the moment.You can walk around all over Spain wearing whatever you like and few or nobody will frown or look back at you.All beaches allow topless sunbathing(as opposed to oh-so-modern USA),r:; .
So i don´t see anywhere the reason you include Spain in the same group as Middle Eastern countries.Although the area of Southern Spain known as Andalusia had a 800 year Moorish occupation,Spain as it is from several years ago is a a very up to date nation,extremely tolerant and with a very large inmigrant population from different countries worldwide...g.:

I never meant to imply that Spain is in the midst of an Inquistion. I love Spain. I apologize that it came across that way.,f::

I don't support covering of hair in Egypt by non-Muslim tourists because it only enforces what a few religious fundamentals want. I didn't think women in countries like Spain covered their hair outside remote villages, or that the natives like to throw acid on Christian girls, but I didn't think I had to specify as we were mainly talking about Egypt in the thread. Sorry!

As I don't support that covering policy, the only policy left is to dress modestly, which helps in other countries around the Mediterrannean (and other continents for that matter...), as well.

Greece isn't a Middle Eastern country either, n'est-ce pas? Nor is Portugal, for that matter. As much nude sunbathing as there is in all these countries, it doesn't change the fact that they have machista traditions. That is the common thread they share with Middle Eastern/North African countries, regardless of religion. It doesn't have to have come from the Moors.

I don't appreciate cat calls, whistles, ass slaps, in short, basically being treated like a dog in heat when I want to take a stroll. That has happened to me in my frequent travels to these countries. The common thread is sperm in the air

I think that dressing modestly can help you in countries where men make a sport of riding by on a moto, leering at you, and adding some unnecessary comment like "me pones a cien" while their pregnant wives sit behind them. I don't think behavior like this necessarily reflects on a country's human rights record or tolerance of other cultures, but it does tell me what I should expect in terms of treatment of women.

I knew a very immature and naive girl who wore a "f--k me" outfit out in Madrid, left with some guys, thwarted their advances and got hit in the face for it. She was mystified as to why she came back from her outing with a shiner. Some places, including in "modern" countries like the US ..l;, , you can't wear something like that and not get labelled as a whore. You can't go alone to hang out with guys and not get labelled. It doesn't make it right, but I would rather avoid the situation if I knew we were dealing with a different mentality.

I got away with a sleeveless top and a skirt in Turkey and Morocco without trouble, so I don't think dressing modestly means dressing like Eleanor Roosevelt. It might mean not wearing one of those mini-skirts with the flounce bottom that lets others know if you are suffering from shaving irritation or vaginitis.

I just think its necessary to cover our bits in some countries (and some parts of rural Maryland ,f:: ) to show men that we don't want to exchange bodily fluids, and that their advances aren't welcome. I heart Spanish men, but I am at the same time wary of the *******s that lurk where'er I may go.

Men act the same way in my country and all around Latin communities,believe me.But still insist that I`ve never had any of this incidents in Spain,and i`ve been traveling there since my early 20`s(i`m 54 now),and continue visiting Spain twice a year since 7 years go,so go figure my experience along the whole peninsula.Actually when i visit there most of the time stay with local friends,so my grip of the country is far from touristy at all.

I stayed with families, and maybe I had horribly bad luck, but I don't think one can deny the existence of a machista mentality in any area around the Mediterranean.

I think we should be respectful when going to a majority muslim country, if that means dressing with modesty and COVERING your hair, than so be it. If it will save me from being felt up, stared at, called mean names, talked about, pointed at, laughed at, kidnapped or whatever else you feel like inserting here.
I can't imagine feeling comfortable walking around in Egypt with a tank top on and skirt. That look is not common and it screams tourists, which in turn COULD draw more negativity your way.
There is nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in but there comes a point in time when SOMETIMES, just sometimes we have to compromise and swallow that fat pride we tend to carry around. It's really not so hard or bad.
Whenever I travel I study up on that country and make an effort to fit in with the native people of that country and have a great time whether covered or not. It's all about using good judgement at the right time.

I'm not necessarily packing those clothes, but the only instructions I got from an Egyptian family were to not wear shorts. The only instructions I got from an Egyptian muslim woman was to dress modestly, but not cover.

There are Egyptian women who don't cover their hair over there. Until they officially follow Islamic law, I don't think anyone should feel pressured to cover up.

I studied the native people; there used to be a native Jewish population until fairly recently, and there are still Christians in addition to Muslims. Some of the Muslims don't cover. The DC Egyptian embassy website still features a nice big picture of a church, as if the majority supports that part of their heritage.

They are still advertising tolerance to the world, so I don't think it's about swallowing pride.

I don't want to criticize people who do cover only when in Egypt, I really just want to show why you might not have to, and why techniques other than covering might work just as well to disspell unwanted attention.

I've decided to cover my hair. I do it in Japan, I've done it in lots of other countries. I get less attention when I do it and that's what it's about for me. I feel safer when I get less attention.

I do feel a bit of when in Romeness too but that's not my main motivation.

I heard Queen Rania (of Jordan) once say 'We should focus on what's in a woman's head, not on her head.'

Just found it...it was on Oprah when I was in Vietnam (hey, it was the first TV I'd seen in a year!)

Oprah Winfrey: Why do some women choose to wear the veil and others not?

Queen Rania : Well, you know, it's a personal--we think it's a personal choice. And, you know, as long as a woman does it because she wants to and she's not coerced into it then that is her right. Unfortunately...

Oprah Winfrey: Did you ever wear a veil? Did you ever?

Queen Rania : I never wore a veil.

Oprah Winfrey: Never did?

Queen Rania : Unfortunately in the West, people look at the veil as a sign of oppression or weakness.

Oprah Winfrey: Yeah.

Queen Rania : And this is not true. As long as a woman is wearing it because of her belief. And I always say we should judge women according to what's going on in their heads rather than what's on top of their heads.

That is so funny, my friend and I were talking about that Oprah episode yesterday. I don't think we're judging women who do cover, but I still think it's great that it was posted. We shouldn't feel coerced to do it if it's not part of our beliefs.

The "Romans" (yes, even Muslim ones) told me not to cover. Only Westerners told me to cover. I find that fascinating.

I have a Coptic boyfriend over there right now. If he is seen close to an ostensibly Muslim girl, I don't know who will get him first: the people or the police. There seem to be some sort of PDA laws ..c:: (I guess it falls under public indecency), but like other laws there, they work out to the minority's disadvantage. That could mean Egyptian jail time for him, while Muslim couples might have a much easier time of it.

Although I don't want to be a bad guest and get him in trouble, my first motivation is to not encourage such discrimination.

They invite all tourists to their country, not just covering ones. I have seen different Saudi Arabians' photos from vacation in Egypt; they don't cover. They take a covering/thobe break because they can. Egypt isn't Saudi Arabia; even there, there are places where the rules aren't so strict (Jeddah, namely).

When I was studying Arabic, we had to read our prof's book, Understanding Arabs. Dr. Margo Omar Nydell emphasizes that Western women in an Arab society are not subject to restrictions of Arab women. They are expected to behave "with propriety", but are not expected to dress or behave as conservtively as their Arab sisters. If I remember correctly, she was married to an Egyptian man.

I would understand if you were visiting an all-Muslim village where women don't have a choice. I will have to cover my hair if I visit ANY functioning religious site, no matter what the religion. I just don't understand why there is this unanimous feeling to cover hair in a country where not every woman does, not only because of a difference in faith, but also because of a personal choice.

Originally Posted by kamilia

When I was studying Arabic, we had to read our prof's book, Understanding Arabs. Dr. Margo Omar Nydell emphasizes that Western women in an Arab society are not subject to restrictions of Arab women. They are expected to behave "with propriety", but are not expected to dress or behave as conservtively as their Arab sisters. If I remember correctly, she was married to an Egyptian man.

For me, covering my hair in Egypt is a choice I choose to make. I don't feel coerced. There are many reasons why it makes sense to me. Here's an article on my web site that goes through most of my reasons: http://www.shira.net/coverhair.htm

I've read your article before. I'm glad you don't feel coerced. Brava for making your own decision!

kamilia, my sentiments exactly. i try very much not to feel pressurized in covering up. if we lament the fact that X years ago a much smaller % of women in egytp covered up, well, it's not going to help much if all the tourists do too. unless i have a physical reason (heath, dirt), or personal safety reason (and you dont in cairo, esp not when you are in a group), or a reason of respect or obligation (like visiting a religious site).. i dont cover up. it makes me feel really bad when i do. i know i gave into it last time i was in cairo (but more with a fashionable headband, not with a hijab), it made me feel bad. i dont like it's connotations. i do respect muslim women who choose to veil, but for me it does have the conotation of opression, and it makes me feel weird. i would really need a very good reason before i'd travel to a country where i would be obligated to cover all the time.

Originally Posted by eshe

Just found it...it was on Oprah when I was in Vietnam
....Queen Rania : And this is not true. As long as a woman is wearing it because of her belief. And I always say we should judge women according to what's going on in their heads rather than what's on top of their heads.

...and if they held the same beliefs and standards for men that it would all be good. But they don't.
Kamilia- I totally understood what you said from the beginning about machismo cultures/countries.

As far as covering- In any religious site anywhere- yes. In places where it genuinely effects my safety or that of those around me- ie all the native women do, yes.
But the fact is, not all native Egyptian women cover, Muslim or not. I spoke with a friend (from Iskandaria) last night about what to wear in Egypt- and he said a head covering was not necessary at all. But I don't wear mini skirts, don't usually show cleavage and usually only show shoulders when working out and so wearing a tank top...he knows this and basically said how I dress normally is fine over there. Even with a headscarf I'll look like a foreigner.
On windy days I may want a scarf to protect from sand. I'll have one handy 'cos I don't like to get tan, gosh- I sometimes keep one handy here in the states (then again, I sometimes use a parasol)... but in a country where many native women do not veil AND where there is oppression such as there is- women, Coptics and more- well, I won't wear it to support oppression.
This isn't a "when in Rome" situation when only some of the "Romans" do it.
There are those also particularly sensitive to the oppression over there- being closer to it. I would never say it's "pride" that makes one want to support a religion that is oppressed over there. I'd say it's the love of human rights and equality.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

This isn't a "when in Rome" situation when only some of the "Romans" do it.

I've never been to Alexandria, so I really don't know what things are like there. But I can say that in Cairo, more than "some" of the locals cover their hair. Sometimes I've gone for an entire day in Cairo without seeing any bare-headed local women. In a single day of being out an about, I might see no more than 2-3 bare-headed local women. So, if your logic is based on whether or not the "when in Rome" situation applies, well, the overwhelming majority of locals DO cover their hair.

Of course, there are other things to weigh. You mentioned protection from sun and blowing grit in the air. You mentioned your desire to make a political statement by supporting an oppressed minority. And in my article, I mentioned the fact that I don't wish to have stereotypes about Americans erroneously applied to me, so I choose to dress in a way that defies the stereotypes and puts people's assumptions off balance. And there are other considerations, too.

Ultimately, it's your own choice. But I do feel it's important to make that choice based on CORRECT information regarding what the locals do. In this case, your statement that only "some" of the locals cover their hair is just plain wrong, at least in Cairo and Luxor.

I do recognize most local women in Egypt do cover their hair.Without any doubt.