Thread: When things are missing in the post - who should pay?

Hi

This has been playing on my mind recently, because I feel like I get screwed over whether I'm buying or selling.

Whenever I sell something, if it's an amount of money I cna't afford to give back (e.g. costume) I giv ehte buyer no option but to get tracked/insured shipping. If its something small like a DVD I often don't bother with forking out for tracking etc unless hte buyer wants to, but I do accept that if it goes missing I will probably have to refund them. I keep this policy for bhuz swaps as well as ebay (where reputation is more visable). I've even given a partial refund when a package has been delayed unresonably.

But as a buyer several times things have gone missing and I've not been refunded. Yes, big companies such as amazon etc refund but I've just had shoulders shrugged and 'not my problem' from private sellers and smaller companies (e.g. a few years back I lost over $100 on L Rose stuff that never tunred up and she just said she couldn't track it end of dialogue). Especially on ebay or small businesses they only give me one shipping option. Seems a particular problem with sellers in the USA that can't distinguish in their mind between a large European city and rural Bhutan ;-).

I ask this because I suspect this is going to happen again, and its a bhuzzer and I do believe she probably did ship it. I don't want to seem like a ass and have to go the paypal route (I'll give it until 40 days before I do that) but I'm a bit sick of loosing out either way.

So bhuz, who is financially responsible once something is in the post, the buyer or the seller?

Z

Yet again one of my threads is a roaring success LOL. I should have mentioned babies or pets.

Don't give up on Bhuz not replying. It could be b/c of the time difference.

I have never bought or sold online yet BUT if I was to sell I sure wouldn't want my reputation to be trampled in the mudd, so I would have some type of an agreement if it was being tracked and didn't arrive.

well, as someone who recently got burned on a set of zills, i would like to believe that the seller is responsible.

it seems the burden falls on the buyer to take recourse.
my moral compass tells me that the seller should bear the burden until the goods arrive at the buyer's address, however that may not be the case.

When I sell I always have tracking and insurance in case of problems - I have even paid for that myself when the buyer didn't want to. Luckily I have had no problems but I always felt that if something got lost I would give the buyer all of the info and receipts to try to collect on the insurance. As a buyer I insist on tracking and insurance to protect my interest - I am totally willing to pay for it. I have often not bid on ebay items if insurance is not offered. To me there is responsibility on both parties but if a buyer does not purchase insurance, they are taking their chances kinda like gambling. The most a seller can do is purchase tracking and insurance but once it is out of their hands they have no control and at that point the recourse is against the postal service.

Originally Posted by zafirah

Yet again one of my threads is a roaring success LOL. I should have mentioned babies or pets.

Geez, girl, even I log off to sleep! ..l;,

This thread wasn't here at midnight or 1am when I signed off. It's now 7:30am. I need coffee before I can answer your questions, these are thinky things!

Originally Posted by zafirah

Hi

This has been playing on my mind recently, because I feel like I get screwed over whether I'm buying or selling.

Whenever I sell something, if it's an amount of money I cna't afford to give back (e.g. costume) I giv ehte buyer no option but to get tracked/insured shipping. If its something small like a DVD I often don't bother with forking out for tracking etc unless hte buyer wants to, but I do accept that if it goes missing I will probably have to refund them. I keep this policy for bhuz swaps as well as ebay (where reputation is more visable). I've even given a partial refund when a package has been delayed unresonably.

But as a buyer several times things have gone missing and I've not been refunded. Yes, big companies such as amazon etc refund but I've just had shoulders shrugged and 'not my problem' from private sellers and smaller companies (e.g. a few years back I lost over $100 on L Rose stuff that never tunred up and she just said she couldn't track it end of dialogue). Especially on ebay or small businesses they only give me one shipping option. Seems a particular problem with sellers in the USA that can't distinguish in their mind between a large European city and rural Bhutan ;-).

I ask this because I suspect this is going to happen again, and its a bhuzzer and I do believe she probably did ship it. I don't want to seem like a ass and have to go the paypal route (I'll give it until 40 days before I do that) but I'm a bit sick of loosing out either way.

So bhuz, who is financially responsible once something is in the post, the buyer or the seller?

Z

OMG! Zaf1! I had been doing great for the longest time as a Seller on the Swap Meet until this past Winter Holiday Season: I had sent out multiple packages in mid- to late Dec. 2007, and then to my chagrin, one package never made it to one of the nicest Bhuzzers I know (we'd bought back and forth from each other before without any problems, I believe). I filled out the studid paperwork the post office sent me [how convenient--no phone #! ,m:: ] and we're still waiting!!! IMO I feel it's the Seller's responsibility to fix/refund; espec. if there was no tracking put on it in the 1st place (totally my call/fault in this particular instance for vhs..c:: ).

When I buy great things here on Bhuz, and pay IMMEDIATELY with paypal in good faith to receive what I bought,, I think that it is the sellers responsibility to get insurance and make sure the goods get to me. If for any reason I dont receive what I bought and it was mailed, I expect a refund. If I were a seller, I would take this responsibility myself and I would get insurance andgive the buyer their money back if they never received what they paid for! Thats what I think about this!

I always have anything I buy or sell tracked. It's really not that expensive - delivery confirmation through the USPS is less than a dollar. I would expect the cost of delivery confirmation and insurance to be calculated as part of the S&H costs.

I've often wondered about this myself. Whenever I buy something from the US and am sent a tracking number, it always says that they can't track in the UK. Similarly, when I sent something abroad this morning, the only tracking available was up to the point of exit from the UK. Is there something they didn't tell me?

When I sent something within the UK and it was delayed, all I could tell from tracking was that it hadn't been delivered, not where it was. Also it seemed that it was the buyer who had to claim that it had gone astray. In the event it turned up, so I'm still not sure what happens. If I sell within the UK I always use recorded delivery.

I feel it is the seller's responsibility. Never mail anything with out some type way to track it.
I ship only with a delivery service that requires the recipient's signature or I mail with USPS and always buy insurance and/or delivery confirmation from the post office.
or you could have the delivery registered or certified at the post office, so that the recipient/buyer is required to sign for it.

Not belly dance related but,
I ordered a kitchen aid mixer from sears. I asked them when it is delivered to make sure that someone has to sign for it. Do not leave it at my door. That was wrote on the receipt.
I waited and waited and nothing. It was over 2 weeks. I went to sears and asked them to check on it.
They told me it was already delivered. I said who signed for it. They said No one it was left by the door!! I told them I never received it.
They were telling me It was not their problem. I gave them my receipt and it states do not leave in front of door , must be signed for. it took 2 months to finally get my item. (I was having medical issues and not always home)

I did find out which neighbor had the 5 finger discount. Charges were brought against him..p::

General Rule, Be aware that some scammers attempt to defraud sellers and buyers.

The best way to protect yourself as a seller against fraud is to ship with the USPS and buy postal insurance!

Selling things internationally poses a problem with respect to tracking and reliability of delivery.

When we did Secret Habibi a few months ago, I sent something to my habibti in Finland. I mailed it around December 5. At the time, I asked the post office about tracking/insurance, and they said they could track it only until it entered Finland. At this point, I was on my own. It didn't arrive until January 11. I was afraid it never would get there, and the lovely Kimahri included in my habibi in the "no habibi left behind program" because we had no way of knowing whether it ever would get there.

I think the delay may have been in customs. No shipper can do anything about that, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by jahbie

I've often wondered about this myself. Whenever I buy something from the US and am sent a tracking number, it always says that they can't track in the UK. Similarly, when I sent something abroad this morning, the only tracking available was up to the point of exit from the UK. Is there something they didn't tell me?

When I sent something within the UK and it was delayed, all I could tell from tracking was that it hadn't been delivered, not where it was. Also it seemed that it was the buyer who had to claim that it had gone astray. In the event it turned up, so I'm still not sure what happens. If I sell within the UK I always use recorded delivery.

I use 'airsure' from royal mail most often to send abroad, it sort of tracks it and you can add insurance for not too much extra.

I thought it was the sender that had to claim for lost mail? That's what I've been told at the post office.

Z

I sell on Ebay. If the buyer will not pay for extra insurance then they buy at their own risk. I am not responsible once that item has been posted. That's just the way it is. However, large companies can afford to lose items and refund their customers, small private sellers cannot.

I've been stung a few times from people who claim not to have received their goods. It's a common scam. Not suggesting you are, of course. But it happens a lot on Ebay.

If people dont want to pay for registered delivery with insurance then it is their problem. People who sell need to make that clear and perhaps get them to sign a discliamer first, or email it from their address etc.
If they refuse then it is definately their problem.

Hi Zaf
Some of us go off to get hair resprayed and miss yer post.

Not BD related but on the way out today, the husband asks the postie at the end of the road..."Anything for us? We are expecting passports with visas"
"No" says postie " we don't deal with passports in the mail".
When we get home special delivery note had been pushed through by said postman...er our passports in the bag he couldn't be bothered to look in?" Good job I have some 4 weeks before we fly!

Regarding ebay missing items. I had to start a paypal dispuit after waiting almost 40 days. I felt bad I was sure the girl had sent the item BUT delay and you have no recourse. Just say sorry but just in case it's floating in the Atlantic I have to claim. And yes mine did arrive eventually.....

I think there is mutual responsibility.
As a buyer, you should insist on having your packages insured and trackable. If the seller has not included these in their shipping estimate, you should pay the extra $.

As a seller you should always include insurance and tracking in your shipping. Note this feature in your posts.

I think it is a little unfair to place the onus entirely on the seller and/or respond negatively if they haven't offered you tracking and insurance. Maybe they don't do a high volume of mailing and have not considered tracking and insurance as a necessary expense. A simple request that they include that should take care of things. I would have this conversation w/a seller as part of the "questions" phase we all go through before we commit to sending payment on something.

I always buy insurance if it is offered on places like e-bay. I also understand that if insurance is not an option from the seller then I am taking my chances if I choose to buy. That being said......I have had to have international B***h rounds with one on line seller that would not even answer my e-mails until I got really nasty. I had been waiting two months for an item that they said would only take 2-3 weeks. After getting truley nasty and threatening to have the charges reversed on my credit card they all of a sudden got my e-mail and my package came 2 weeks later. I obviously no long do any business with them but I learned my lesson, insurance or I don't buy.

I recently had a package go astray twice on its way from the US to Canada, a trip that should have taken no more than ten days. The first time it came back to me marked "insufficient postage," even though the post office clerk calculated the postage when I mailed it. I repackaged it and mailed it again weeks ago, but the buyer has still not received it and I fear it's gone for good. (Still keeping my fingers crossed: if anyone sees a little burgundy abaya with pink embroidery wandering around Ontario, speaking only Arabic and looking lost and forlorn, please PM me.)

In this situation I feel responsible -- and guilty -- because I did not buy insurance or tracking as I usually do when I mailed it the second time. I was in a hurry to send it out again after the initial delay, and in the back of my mind I illogically thought "what are the chances of there being a problem twice?" The buyer has been nothing but sweet and patient about it, but given the circumstances I've refunded her payment. It seemed like the right thing to do in this situation, and I trust her to pay me again if the item does show up eventually.

But this was a relatively small thing, an abaya, not an expensive costume -- I wouldn't be able to cough up the money for a big-ticket item even if I wanted to! But I'd also feel terrible if the other person got stuck for it. I prefer that the buyer pay a sufficient amount for shipping to cover insurance and tracking, since chances are I paid it myself when I bought the item. If that's not possible, though, I'd much rather pay a little more up front than have either of us be out a really significant sum or end up wrangling about it for weeks afterward.

The ONE TIME we didn't shell out the buck twenty five for tracking, the package got lost permanently. I'd love to go through the post office 'dead package' room...I'm sure we could all find stuff that was meant to get to us at some point. :)

As a regular buyer/seller I think that this is a complicated question that
depends on a lot of factors:

* is it a private sale or did you buy from a company?
* is insurance offered and refused by the buyer? (then responsibility goes to the buyer.)
* is insurance not offered? (responsibility goes to the seller)
* is parcel definetly lost or is is it possible that it will show up again? (ergo: how long do you wait to give/ask for a refund?)
* how expensive is the item? (loose 15 USD on a dvd, or 300 USD on a costume)
* how reliable is the seller/buyer? (I trust bhuzzers, not so sure about some ebay sellers...)

Hell I dont know if any of those stories are about me, but this happened last year after I sold a costume on Ebay. I dont remember who the buyer was, but I clearly offered insurance and it was refused. Mailed the package only to get "parts of the box" in the mail with a letter from the post office that things had been lost and they were looking for it.

Now I had tracking on it, and it showed the package had arrived in the girl's town's post office. I emailed and wrote to this post office, filled out all the appropriate forms, only to be told the item could not be found. THEY DID SEND ME A RIPPED OFF PART OF THE BOX THOUGH!!!!

How do I know this person (and I am normally a very trusting person) isnt trying to rip me off and she did in fact receive what she bought? I strongly believe it was no one's fault in this case, and had I been rich and selling costume just for fun, i'd have gladly give all of her money back. BUT, she refused the insurance... so...

I always try to do the right thing and make everyone happy, and I pride myself in being honest (well except with my husband, I guess, oops!), but the package DID afterall make it there... sort of I guess. I still think about this, and I still feel bad. Maybe one day i'll get enough money and send some to her. Not that it was much, I believe it was like 100$ or something, but still, I feel aweful!

Originally Posted by zafirah

I thought it was the sender that had to claim for lost mail? That's what I've been told at the post office.

Z

That's because the sender is the post offices client -- the reciepient is technically a third party. The sender does have to file the claim, but that should not make the sender automatically liable -- if sender offered tracking/insurance and the buyer refused it then the buyer is liable; if sender purchased tracking/insurance then the postal service is liable; if sender neither offered nor purchased tracking/insurance then sender is liable.

It really stinks that you've been biten on both sides of this dilema! Let us know how it works out!

Rach

So if an insured package is lost in the mail the correct process would be for buyer to make a claim on Paypal to get a refund and then seller would work with the post office to collect the insurance?

It is an unfortunate fact of life that occasionally packages "disappear" in the mail - it is not fun for the seller or the buyer - everyone is unhappy - it bothers me that people want to lay "fault" on one or the other and feelings of distrust surface - if buyer pays for insurance and seller sends with insurance than the only "fault" would be the post office with two unfortunate dancers on the side. The correct placement of fault, anger, distrust needs to be placed on the post office.

So far I have been lucky and have never had to go through the claim process on either side - I hope that continues.

When I sell on eBay, I always use delivery confirmation, insurance, and tracking. I include it in the shipping price automatically. It just saves the hassle of buyer-said/seller-said.

Yea, since something I sold got lost once, now I send ONLY with insurance if its above a price I wouldnt be able to afford refunding, whether I charge for it or not!