Thread: So Snowbelle never refunded me =(

I just wanted to share with you the outcome on this situation. The link named "very negative experience buying on bhuz' resulted on a long conversation with dancers sharing their own stories and posting their opinions on what is fair and not fair when we sell, buy or trade costumes on bhuz. I also appreciate everyone's support and sympathy towards reinforcing the fact that I was being treated unfairly and that I had the right to expose Snowbelle's actions here. My ideas on how to treat other fellow dancers with fairness and respect were reinforced in this forum. At the beginning I was very upset and ready to take down my profile and not longer be a member of bhuz, but then I realized that I couldn't be upset with such a great community based on her individual actions.

I tried my best to resolve this issue with Snowbelle and also got paypal involved in this but it has become obvious to me that she has no intention on being fair and is rather fixated in the opportunity of making money at my expense. This conflict has taken a lot of my time and energy that I would rather focus on my dancing and other positive projects. I am putting it to rest but wanted to share some of the last emails she sent me. On the first one she clearly commits herself to refund me. However, Her refund never came through.

Sent to my inbox on 8/5/10

I'm sending it as a business transaction, which is what it is. I will include $5, that should cover your transaction fee as well. I will be refunding you $455.00 So you'll be responsible for shipping. You can insure it for $500. I can cover the cost of insurance, which will be about $13. So I'll send a total of $468. Send me an reply that you agree to these terms and I'll have to make sure to notify Paypal, that I'll be refunding you, just in case. It was never about the money, in my opinion this costume is not in the shape you claim it to be. You know very well that when you put on that costume, no one will think, that the costume looks bad or in bad shape. The only fraying part of the fabric, is where it is covered by the belt, and if it was visible to an audience, I would have made sure to mention that. It's not new, I know. But when on a body, the costume looks good. Anyone can make a minor imperfection look worse than it is, when zooming in on it and only making that the main focus. I hope the costume is in the same condition, in which it was received. And don't forget to send me a reply about the status with Paypal, I don't want to have to deal with a separate issue later on. Thank you.

I never received the refund, I emailed her again over the weekend and this is what I get from her.

Sent to my inbox on 8/9/10

I'm not around most weekends to check Bhuz, but I have asked you to please send me a pic of that "rip" you claimed. I do want to make sure of the current condition of this costume. I can't hold you liable to anythng once I receive the costume back. And I will have to re-sell it. I did offer you a partial refund so you can make any necessary alterations but you,ve declined my offer. So just trying to take the necessary steps in order to get you the refund and this resolves asap.

This is after I had posted the pictures on bhuz, including the one with the rip on the bra and had sent a picture directly to her inbox. All the 'evidence' that she asked for was submitted.

On one of her last emails she accussed me of possibly having damaged the costume in order to justify my demands for a refund. I have done several transations with dancers here and I know for a fact it has always been a positive experience. Some of you know me personally and know that I am not capable of such behavior.

Once again, thank you for your support and for taking the time to read, share and support me. I hope that we all can learn from this experience.

Rosalba

This totally sucks..cr.:! I believe you've done the best you could by documenting, through emails and pictures, the state of the costume and the reasons why you wanted to return the costume. Snowbelle has been completely unreasonable...anyone wishing to preserve their good name and reputation would have taken the costume back immediately-she wouldn't even have been out the shipping costs and could have reposted the costume for sale again (hopefully after either documenting the existing shape of it for buyers or repairing it herself)! For her to now turn around and accuse you of possibly damaging the costume to force the return is ridiculous!! The pictures you posted speak volumes about the state of the costume and it is certainly nothing that I would ever try to pass on to another dancer except, as I said before, as a possible project. This is all very upsetting and I feel for you. I am glad you are not giving up on Bhuz...

Wow. 'm sorry you are going thru this. I'm glad you're not giving up on Bhuz. We're not all like that.
What worries me is she may just disappear off of Bhuz and show back up with a new name and none of us would even know. She could have done this before and we aren't aware. It does make me feel I should be more aware of who I buy from.

That's terrible, and yes Mahira, I've also thought of that. There should be some kind of thread that lists all the bhuzzers a bhuzzer can trust and an initiation to join the club. 5 flawless transactions. ;) Just a thought.

But you posted a picture online, and we all saw the rip!
I know it's not huge, but it is a rip none the less.
If it had one just one problem and the costume was in otherwise good condition, The $100 partial refund would have been reasonable, but it seems like this one was mis-described all along.
I hope you get your money back soon.

So sorry to hear you're going through this, Rosalba. :(

Well, you have her promises to you in writing, so that's enough to be legally binding. Whether or not you want to go the legal route is up to you - probably way more time and expense than it is worth - but you do have enough to prove she entered into a valid contract with you to refund the money in exchange for a return of the costume.

This all so unfortunate for you. One thing I have learned from your experience is that I will no longer pay for costumes with the gift option on Paypal. This is something people have just started requesting and I have also started suggesting but I won't be doing that anymore. I would rather pay the seller the extra couple of dollars to send the payment for "goods" and have the buyer protection.
It takes a lot of courage to go public with a complaint about another Bhuzzer but in this case I think you were totally justified and Snowbelle isn't helping her reputation at all with her actions.

Well, I think it may have been a good idea to send her more photos, since she asked for it and that would have been a way to keep the communication going, I can see bot sides and understand that the seller may feel disappointed. And, I may be wrong here, but unless the two of you agreed on an order of how to handle the refund (i.e., who has to send what where when), there may be two parties waiting on the other to take the next step?

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

Wow. 'm sorry you are going thru this. I'm glad you're not giving up on Bhuz. We're not all like that.
What worries me is she may just disappear off of Bhuz and show back up with a new name and none of us would even know. She could have done this before and we aren't aware. It does make me feel I should be more aware of who I buy from.

Well the result of this is that no-one would feel happy to buy from her and sadly as you say she can come back with another identity which makes us suspicious of dealing with new Bhuzzers. AS I pointed out it is not just her good name she has tarnished but the whole concept of trust that has been set up though Bhuz Swap Meet. Frankly she'd have had her costume back and although unlikely to sell it again..I cannot see why she would have preferd to have her good name intact.

How disappointing, and unfair. I can't believe that someone would be willing to sell their reputation for a mere $450.

I hate to say it, but an easy way to protect ourselves against a "new identity" would be to provide her real name. Anyone doing business in future with this scam artist would know before money exchanged who they were dealing with. It's not particularly fair to completely out her, in some ways, given the limited anonymity that Bhuz provides it's users... but then it's also not fair that she scammed you, and might try to scam someone else in the future.

Karma always finds a way...

I'm wondering if when I sell something in the future if it would be ok to list names of people who have bought stuff from me in the past just incase a new buyer would like to contact them. Kind of like a referral. And when I sell stuff I give my name and phone number and my biz name is on my PP. This still sucks rjasso! People never cease to amaze...

The Long Hair Community

this community uses a vendor system that is part of the software. Dunno how it works, or how much of a PITA it would be to implement, but it would help.

Originally Posted by lenaregina

I'm wondering if when I sell something in the future if it would be ok to list names of people who have bought stuff from me in the past just incase a new buyer would like to contact them. Kind of like a referral. And when I sell stuff I give my name and phone number and my biz name is on my PP. This still sucks rjasso! People never cease to amaze...

Some sort of rating system would be beneficial, like Ebay has. We do have this thread though, as a last resort.
Re costume descriptions: I can sort of understand that there might be a "perception gap" in some cases, where one person's idea of Perfect Condition is another person's idea of a mess. Personally I try to avoid any such gaps by going over anything I sell with a fine-toothed comb and documenting everything that might even be construed as a flaw. Nobody's perfect and I may genuinely miss something small, but the full-disclosure bar should be a whole lot higher than "well the audience won't see it."

maybe we could start two new forums (or topic) recommended & non-recommended Bhuzzers.
Or a quick fix may be to post on the person's individual page that you recommend them as a buyer or seller.

Originally Posted by isildriel

Some sort of rating system would be beneficial, like Ebay has. We do have this thread though, as a last resort.
Re costume descriptions: I can sort of understand that there might be a "perception gap" in some cases, where one person's idea of Perfect Condition is another person's idea of a mess. Personally I try to avoid any such gaps by going over anything I sell with a fine-toothed comb and documenting everything that might even be construed as a flaw. Nobody's perfect and I may genuinely miss something small, but the full-disclosure bar should be a whole lot higher than "well the audience won't see it."

the problem in this case was Snowbelle doesn't feel that the rip in the bra was bad since it would be covered by fringe (I'm using her words from the other thread) and the shredded skirt would show since it would be covered by the belt (again using her words) so event though the rest of us would document such things, she did not since she felt it wasn't bad condition because it wouldn't show.

I had made a suggestion awhile back on the swap meet rules thread

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/bellydance...tml#post645951

the only problem I see with it now is that if the user deletes their profile all their "feedback" would be gone. I know Rosey has been deleting old posts in the swap meet too. So, how else could we make this work?

I would try sending her the pics again, just so she can't say you didn't. Then follow that up with an email asking her specifically when she will refund you and once you receive the refund you will send her back the costume.

From reading the previous thread it seems to me that Snowbelle is rather convinced that the costume is usable in it's current state (or at least pretends it is).

I don't care if a rip is hidden or not, as long as it exists it should have been mentioned in the item description. It could at least said something like "well loved" which might have prompted the prospective buyers to ask more questions. If you are a honest seller then you should have nothing to hide. But of course mentioning the damage would have made it highly unlikely for the cossie to sell for 450usd... which in turn makes me doubt the sellers honesty...

All in all based on her previous actions I was really surprised when she offered to take the costume back... and not surprised at all when I read that she didn't.

If she truly believes that the costume is in good condition she should have no problems taking it back since she'd sell it again quickly for the same price, right? No more photos should be needed... the photos sound like one big excuse to me. I hope I'm wrong and it's all a huge misunderstanding.

Meanwhile Snowbelle has a blue abla for sale so I don't think that her actions regarding rjasso are helping her sell. ..c::

Here are some of the salient points from Mahira's thread. I think these ideas are worth revisiting:

MahiraRaqs: I have a suggestion.
As a buyer, once you've received the item and the transaction is complete, post in the original post with your praise (hopefully it's praise), send the seller a message saying you got it and all is good, and also post a comment on that persons profile saying you bought an item from them and it was all good. Kind of like ebay feedback.

Isildriel: If you're re-posting a nice item that just didn't work for you, I also think it's cool to make clear that the item was "as described" and the seller was not at fault. I try to do that.

In the past I purchased a costume labeled as 'well loved but definitely wearable as-is'. In it's earlier life I feel certain it was a lovely costume. Sadly the silver lining in most of the beads had been worn away, the lycra was picked and had pills of threads on it, the hem of the lycra skirt was stained to the point I have not been able to remove the oily areas. Most of the beadwork along the hem was crushed, I presume it was as a result of her dancing wearing heels.

I did not contact the seller re the situation since the posting did list well loved in the description. It is impossible to utilize the costume as-is. I cut away the small amount of usable beadwork and marked the experience as a lesson learned. I am now much more cautious.

I do hope you are able to reach some form of resolution. It's a shame someone would sell their reputation for any price, especially for $450. In the very least she should refund the money as she stated and hopefully add an apology.

In general, what are the rules for a refund? When I return my husband's LLBean mis-picks, I ship at my expense and get refunded after they get things and process everything. Not sure what the procedure on Bhuz would be - who knows more?

As a preventative measure, maybe Bhuzzers could begin to make it standard practice to have a "Condition/Disclosure" comment in every Swap Meet post in addition to Sizes and Pics so that people don't forget to list flaws, and if they do, it is a more obvious omission?

I know people often list these but it can be random.

BRA: 36 Max UB, 8"Diagional 7"Horizontal, 7"Vertical
Straps 15" each, no hooks

BELT/SKIRT: 32" Upper Unstretched, 36" Max Stretch
36" Lower Hip Unstretched, 40" Max stretch

SKIRT LENGTH: 36"

CONDITION/DISCLOSURE (Rips, Snags, Missing Stones, Stains, Lining, Approx. Usage): Some tarnish on stone prongs, a few ABs missing on belt, BELT LINING RIPPED, CHIFFON SKIRT RIPPED (in area not visible under belt when worn) self-tanner marks inside bra.

(or it could read "Like New" etc., but not be left blank)

-Devora

Originally Posted by basil1

maybe we could start two new forums (or topic) recommended & non-recommended Bhuzzers.
Or a quick fix may be to post on the person's individual page that you recommend them as a buyer or seller.

But what if you don't sell that often on Bhuz? I've sold about five things on Bhuz since I joined, all of them successful transactions, but digging them up would be a pain...that and some threads might not even exist anymore because they're so old. I've recently sold two costumes on Bhuz but I haven't sold anything prior to that for about six months.

I like and hope to think that this was a fluke and that most Bhuzzers are very responsible and honest sellers. It'll be hard and it's going to take a lot of work to come up with some sort of rating system that will work for us private sellers...I'd rather just see more "listing rules" such as close up pictures no matter the condition and some proof of the photographing date although this could be hard to moderate too.

Or maybe have a list of standard questions that you have to answer before you sell that you have to write in your thread...like "Are there any hidden tears"? or "Are there missing rhinestones"?

When you think of how many transactions pass through this place, this kind of thing really is the flukey exception.

And yes, I think it would be great if there was a sticky at the top of the swap with an official listing template exactly like Devora's above. Maybe we should suggest that to Rosey.

Originally Posted by marsbar

Or maybe have a list of standard questions that you have to answer before you sell that you have to write in your thread...like "Are there any hidden tears"? or "Are there missing rhinestones"?

I like this option....

As i have read this and a different thread(on one costume not sent at all) It makes me think about having....
Bhuz's... PEOPLE Court..
dem dem dem... de dem dem dem... .... ...
What you are about to witness is real. The participants are not actors. They are actual litigants with a case pending in civil court. Both parties have agreed to drop their claims and have their cases settled here, before Judge lizajuk, in our forum: Bhuz's: The People's Court.

Originally Posted by Khuzama

I like this option....

As i have read this and a different thread(on one costume not sent at all) It makes me think about having....
Bhuz's... PEOPLE Court..
dem dem dem... de dem dem dem... .... ...
What you are about to witness is real. The participants are not actors. They are actual litigants with a case pending in civil court. Both parties have agreed to drop their claims and have their cases settled here, before Judge lizajuk, in our forum: Bhuz's: The People's Court.

..l;,..l;,

Fortunately, I know that the majority of bhuz members here are honest and not trying to scam each other so that in itself gives me a lot of confidence.

I did learn my lessons with this one though.....

I sold a costume on ebay before and even though the buyer paid for it, the funds were not released until she received it, was happy with it, and then released the funds. I think there's an option like that through paypal. I will look into it for my own personal transactions. I will also NEVER send a payment as a 'gift' to somoene I don't know and have never dealt with and will definately ask about returns and refunds. As much as I migh love a costume based on first impressions, it will be too risky to receive something that was not what I expected. I think asking for specifics on the wear and tear, length of usage, missing stones/beads/firnge is a must. And yes, I think a rating system or comments left on our profiles on how a costume was advertised and how it was actually received would be beneficial to everyone

Originally Posted by rjasso

I sold a costume on ebay before and even though the buyer paid for it, the funds were not released until she received it, was happy with it, and then released the funds. I think there's an option like that through paypal.

Eeee...I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with this option. And in the end, it sounds like she just sent you the money after receiving the costume because you could never take the funds in the first place. I know most of us here are trustworthy and awesome but I think this could really be subject to abuse...I mean, everything could be used and either side could be taken advantage of but something about this makes me feel really uncomfortable.

What if the costume's fine but the buyer suddenly decides that she doesn't want the costume anymore or she found something that she likes more? She can just say the costume wasn't to her expectations, rant about what a bad seller the person is, or maybe even ruin the costume deliberately...I doubt anyone's THAT diabolical but...who knows? I would never, ever send a costume out until payment's been received.

I'm still iffy on a rating system that's foolproof...I would rather have some sort of template when it comes to describing a costume for sale. Maybe for items priced over $200, you'll need to provide detailed shots of the costume...for over $500 you'll need detailed shots as well as clear and concise description of every performance you used the costume in...and so on and so on...a video review would also be great if Bhuzzers had the equipment for it! I was planning to do a video review of my coin Bella that I was selling but it sold before I could do it!