Thread: Lost international packages --who's to blame?

Inspired by some recent threads...

So when international packages go missing, who eats the loss?

Is it different if it's a swap meet transaction vs one with a vendor?

As a swap meet user, I avoid intl transactions. As a vendor, I do them but find it worrisome. I've never had a package go missing but its scary because there is no affordable insured shipping and usually no tracking.

What are everyone's thought?

I've sold internationally and packages have gone missing.

I refunded the buyer in full, because it was the right thing to do (not necessarily the legal obligation to do so).

I think that if the parties are open and communicate with each other, as in, shipping internationally to you, it's at your risk, and making sure that this is known is the best way to avoid problems.

I *do* worry though, and if I feel I'm going through a particularly difficult patch of high stress, I will NOT well internationally as my ability to focus and write numbers correctly is thrown out of wack.

I think often the only thing to do is ask buyers from other countries to assume the risk if they want to buy. If it's a big-ticket item you can offer the option of shipping with a private international courier service (such as DHL) that offers international tracking, if the buyer wants to assume the additional cost.
Rosette

Legality aside, I tend to think that the seller should take the loss as they are the only one generally allowed to file a complaint and receive remuneration from the shipping company or post office. The buy has no recourse other than filing a mail fraud claim. This is one of the main reasons I try to always have a trackable method of shipment. It isn't always possible, but it is the best option.

I agree with Rosette. If you are buying a high cost item then you,as a buyer, should also pay to have the item insured. I always tell a buyer outside of the U.S. that I recommend for the item to be insured. Also, when I have bought outside the U.S. I have asked for insurance. If no insurance is available then I will not purchase the item. However, anytime I ship within the U.S. I always include insurance and confirmation with the shipping price. It is important for the seller/buyer to have good communication regardless.

Originally Posted by Reinaa

I agree with Rosette. If you are buying a high cost item then you,as a buyer, should also pay to have the item insured. I always tell a buyer outside of the U.S. that I recommend for the item to be insured. Also, when I have bought outside the U.S. I have asked for insurance. If no insurance is available then I will not purchase the item. However, anytime I ship within the U.S. I always include insurance and confirmation with the shipping price. It is important for the seller/buyer to have good communication regardless.

Okay, so what service in the US provides a reasonably-priced, insured, trackable international parcel delivery? By reasonably priced, I mean no one is going to pay hundreds of dollars to ship a used costume. I just checked rates at DSL, and to ship a package (less than a pound) to the int'l destination I most recently shipped to would cost $180. The average swap meet user is not going to pay that.

I couldn't get Aramex (which was mentioned in another thread) website to give me a rate, or tell me where the nearest drop off is.

It's frustrating to me when stuff happens that makes people unwilling to ship internationally. Where I am, in Canada, we're a comparatively small market, because of our relatively low population. This means that our swapmeet options are severely limited if nobody is willing to buy or sell internationally.

I've made many purchases on the swapmeet and a couple of sales, almost all of them international, and there have never been any problems. I completely understand if a seller wants to cover her bases by insisting on insured shipping with tracking, and the buyer should be willing to pay for this. If not, s/he doesn't have to purchase the item. This protects both the buyer and the seller, because there is proof that the item was shipped and that it was received. It also means that a value for the item is officially registered with the post office, and then a claim for that amount can be made if the item gets lost.

I don't like the idea of having items shipped to me via courier, because couriers often charge outrageous brokerage fees for bringing the items through customs. This can add $30 or $40 or more to the cost of shipping already incurred and make the item simply too costly to consider purchasing. However, I guess if the purchase involved a country whose postal service has a dubious record, it would be a necessity, although the item would have to be either an incredible bargain or something I wanted very, very badly, for me to be willing to pay ~$70 for shipping, all told.

So, I think after reading the experiences of others, I will always ship with insurance and tracking. I've done this, anyhow, because Canada Post charges only a few dollars extra for this--to the U.S., anyhow--I've not shipped elsewhere, and I can understand why others would insist on doing so. As a buyer, I will be willing to pay for this.

In answer to your question, though, if the buyer specifically requested the cheapest shipping method, and the seller agreed to it, and there is proof that the item was shipped, then I think both are responsible, and they should share equally in the loss. The seller should reimburse the buyer for half the purchase price plus shipping charges. They should each suck up their share of the loss and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

I ship international packages daily. If you have an account set up with a shipper you usually get better pricing than the average person. But, that all depends on volume. If you ship regularly, I would call and ask them about small business pricing (or whatever options fit best).

I have had the best international service with FedEx. Pricing is good - then again, I ship as a business and not as an individual - and their customer service has always been stellar. In the event something gets lost, I am reimbursed for value of the goods. Most packages are covered up to $100 value standard, I typically opt for more coverage.

In the event of loss/damage, we reimburse our customer or send out a replacement if possible. As we are ship on our account, we have more pull to make a claim with the carrier to recover the monetary loss.

I always recommend getting a tracking number on shipments. A little piece of mind goes a long way.

Hey ladies!

We offer free shipping on all international and domestic orders through USPS. We inform customers on our website that our international and domestic shipping is through the USPS and is NOT insured. If the package gets lost in transit we do not refund or replace the item. We give the buyer an option to pay for insured FedEx shipping but very rarely does the customer want to pay $50+ for shipping costs. This is the buyers choice to make. If the buyer chooses to ship it the cheapest way possible, they run the risk of the item not ever showing up. That is what insurance is for! We deal with this all the time. Packages get lost all the time, even domestically!!!

In this case, I'm torn. I see that the buyer did not receive what she paid for but ran the risk by asking for the cheapest shipping possible. For the seller, I would want to keep my reputation good on this website so I would consider a full refund. I feel bad for both parties involved!

:/

Akila

Originally Posted by ssipes

Okay, so what service in the US provides a reasonably-priced, insured, trackable international parcel delivery? By reasonably priced, I mean no one is going to pay hundreds of dollars to ship a used costume. I just checked rates at DSL, and to ship a package (less than a pound) to the int'l destination I most recently shipped to would cost $180. The average swap meet user is not going to pay that.

I couldn't get Aramex (which was mentioned in another thread) website to give me a rate, or tell me where the nearest drop off is.

I have shipped USPS with insurance to Finland, Australia, Mexico and Canada for less than $50. However, because of all the pain in the butt paperwork I rarely ship out of the U.S. I usually post U.S.A only in most cases.

I am happy to ship anywhere in the world, and have filled out custom forms so many times now it is easy. I will not sell a costume without full insurance to another country, and only use USPS flat rate priority boxes. Shipping and full insurance (no "gift" marked on the customs forms and full costume value marked on the form) often ranges between $55 and $70. I've never had a costume lost (crosses fingers) but if it were lost I could collect the fully insured value and refund the buyer's money.

I live in Canada and buy a lot online (More than I do in person!). And I've gotten ripped off multiple times by online sellers.

So I pay for EVERYTHING by PayPal now, Mostly because of there "buyer protection" policy in there TOS sets out shipping standards. And I avoid a lot of sellers/shops/people who don't take paypal for this reason. (paypal states in there TOS that it has to be shipped with "delivery confirmation" to international destinations)

I refuse to pay for insurance. (yes refuse don't hate me) 9 times out of 10 I can't file the insurance claim the sender has to, and I don't get the pay out at the end either.

I paid for the item and the shipping. And I feel that my responsibility ends there. Its the sellers responsibility to get the item to me.

Granted I do pay the $50 for shipping with tracking, That usually has insurance built into the price. If you cheap out and go with the cheap-o shipping than your out of luck.

I don't trust shipping without tracking. If I send a package and it gets lost then I take the loss and refund my buyer.

I sell stuff on ebay a bit and these days I only offer tracked services to my buyers. Offering cheap shipping to get a few extra buyers is a false economy as one lost parcel would wipe out any gain from the past few sales. I only sell stuff I no longer need, it would be different if you were selling new items or large volumes I think.

Things have changed here in Australia recently. It now costs pretty much the same to send anything over a 1KG internationally by express with tracking as it does to send economy. I think it is a $6 difference.

Also I only use paypal so both buyer and seller are protected.

As a swapmeet buyer, I have a fair idea of what the shipping will be and I factor that in when I decide to buy. I am grateful for sellers who post internationally, it gives me access to costumes I just wouldn't be able to afford otherwise.

Well, since I started the thread, I will give my opinion now.
As a business owner and vendor, I think I have a responsibility to get items I sell to people. I *always* ship insured and tracked within the US. I do not give domestic customers the choice of opting out of insurance. The insurance is for me not them. Replacing an occasional lost package should be built in to my profit margin, along with advertising, cost of materials, cost of my time, etc. Regardless of whether I ship inside or outside the US, if something doesn't make it to one of my customers, I'm going to replace it.

The swap meet, however, seems like a much grayer area. I am not convinced that individuals selling an occasional used costume have the same responsibilities as a vendor operating a business. That person can't really build in occasional losses into their profit margin. If you sell two bellas per year on the swap meet, the only way you can build the loss of one into your profit margin is to double the price of other, and then it wouldn't sell.

I'm inclined to think that if buyer and seller both agree on a particular method of shipping, both should partially shoulder the responsibility if it gets lost. I do think that the seller should always keep documentation that she/he mailed the item (e.g. receipt from post office and/or certificate of mailing), but if the item then gets lost, hmmm? I think splitting the loss seems like the best thing to do. I don't think the entire liability should go to the swap meet seller.

I know this is an older thread, but I'm just now seeing it and wanted to get this info out there.

If you use Priority Mail and ship to Canada the parcel can be tracked. Once it clears Canadian customs you can use the same tracking number on Canada Post's web site. I'm not sure if this applies to other countries, but I have used CP's site to keep an eye on packages.

I always use Priority Mail for costumes even though it might be cheaper to just use regular Parcel Post. I feel better knowing I can find out where the package is, and the receiver is sent an e-mail from the USPS with shipment details. They know I've sent their item, and they can stalk it to their heart's content.

Yeah, tracking is a must, domestically or internationally. Especially with the crazy people who work on the Alaskan end of things. I never, ever send things without tracking, at least anymore, tho I honestly don't know what costs more in the long run - paying for Insurance and tracking or budgeting for occasional losses. I've noticed that packages with the tags for insurance or signature confirmation are less likely to go missing in the first place, which I think is a sad commentary on our mail system. I can ship 20 items priority insured and not one goes missing, but send 5 first class or parcel post and at least 2 will go missing. Also wanted to make sure international vendors know that DHL US is not the same as DHL international. The German based DHL which ships from almost everywhere is reliable and reasonable. DHL US has the worst customer service on the planet (even worse than the Alaska office for UPS and that's saying something!)

Not really international shipping, but some people seem to think it is... Insisting on shipping via UPS is a good way to loose Alakan customers. Part of the reason it takes so long for UPS packages to get here and costs are so high is that they literally get it as far as Washington and then stick it in the USPS mail system, then pick it up again to deliver. I once had to wait an extra week for a package sitting at the PO a block away from me because the local UPS guy was stuck across the river due to flooding, but I was not authorized to pick it up myself.

I learned a lot from your post Lara. I had no idea that there was the German DHL and a DHL US! And that sucks with UPS! They are expensive and for them to mail the packages to Alaska and then pick them up from the PO is awful! What a rip off!
Patricia

Originally Posted by Lara L

Yeah, tracking is a must, domestically or internationally. Especially with the crazy people who work on the Alaskan end of things. I never, ever send things without tracking, at least anymore, tho I honestly don't know what costs more in the long run - paying for Insurance and tracking or budgeting for occasional losses. I've noticed that packages with the tags for insurance or signature confirmation are less likely to go missing in the first place, which I think is a sad commentary on our mail system. I can ship 20 items priority insured and not one goes missing, but send 5 first class or parcel post and at least 2 will go missing. Also wanted to make sure international vendors know that DHL US is not the same as DHL international. The German based DHL which ships from almost everywhere is reliable and reasonable. DHL US has the worst customer service on the planet (even worse than the Alaska office for UPS and that's saying something!)

Not really international shipping, but some people seem to think it is... Insisting on shipping via UPS is a good way to loose Alakan customers. Part of the reason it takes so long for UPS packages to get here and costs are so high is that they literally get it as far as Washington and then stick it in the USPS mail system, then pick it up again to deliver. I once had to wait an extra week for a package sitting at the PO a block away from me because the local UPS guy was stuck across the river due to flooding, but I was not authorized to pick it up myself.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

I learned a lot from your post Lara. I had no idea that there was the German DHL and a DHL US! And that sucks with UPS! They are expensive and for them to mail the packages to Alaska and then pick them up from the PO is awful! What a rip off!
Patricia

I'm way late to this thread, but I just saw this and wanted to add, it's quite common for UPS to do this, even in the lower 48. It's what they call their "Surepost" service, and it's being used by more and more online retailers (like Amazon).